Should Live Call It Quits?, Is it time? Options

[Alex]

Who decides what is well written and not? you? me? Eddie? God himself? the whole thing is up to interpretation, just admit it. i mean what are you trying to say, that because it doesnt sit as tightly as other songs then its badly written, maybe its just a less used form of writing than the majority is used to hearing.

A less used form of writing??? It doesn't 'sit as tightly'?

How the hell is the formulaic bullshit that the last 2 albums consist of a 'less used form of writing'? ANYONE that has a knowledge of music and that can seperate enjoyment from objectivity can say what is well written and what is not. As music is by far the biggest part of my life, and I've been studying it for 14 years, I know that I myself can judge music writing.

How do we decide whose opinion or right and wrong should be taken as FACT? and whose shouldnt? and how do you make your choice on who to choose?

when did music become less about expressing oneself and more about structure, the right sounds the right etc etc etc.
when rap become more known, alot of people said, thats not music, its talking not singing there for its not music, and now its one of the biggest listen to form of music. if we didnt have new styles coming up we would still be listening to nothing newer the opera singers. ....not that opera music doesnt have its place..... somewhere

Another example, when picasso came along, he was ridiculed for being a crappy painter, because it wasn't a monet, da vinci etc etc. it was pretty and in proportion and all in the lines like it "should" be. now, people stare at his works like they are master pieces, with great expression, over time what is important or the is the necessary criteria changes, evolves

come on, open your minds.

It's not fucking opinion. You keep missing the point. Yes, SOME people connect with, and find Lives recent offerings pleasant and enjoy it (though I still fail to see how- it's all so cheesy...)
Sure, Live may be expressing themselves and the music and lyrics may reflect their current state of mind. But the resulting sound is certainly nothing original. In my opinion, it's far harder to write music that leans towards 'happier' aspects of life, without coming off as cheesy or uninspired. That doesn't mean it can't be done, but you can hardly claim that SFBM achieves it.

Music has been about structure, and the right sounds 'etc etc etc' for MANY years. Surely that is the main point? Surely artists should go out of their way to try and achieve a perfectly written song every time they compose? Classical music was originally very structured, and whilst over many years instrumentation, timbre, dynamics, ornamentation, and structure changed, composers that are still widely recognized today knew the rules before breaking them. Though I certainly can't claim to know anything about the history of art, I'm fairly sure I remember reading that Picasso's earliest works did follow the conventions of the time. (I'm not entirely sure though). Since I know nothing about it, I don't really want to compare the two.

I don't know what your point was about rap music. It's hardly like Live have created a controversial fan-spiltter of an album due to being unique and original- quite the opposite. And clearly we have different definitions of an open mind. The fact that you were insulting 'opera' music which you don't appear to know anything about proves that.

[fallen angel]

If Live had not put out throwing copper secret samadhi and the distance to here (I know they put out menal jewelry first but honestly who had that before throwing copper) I'm pretty confident I wouldn't have bought V (even though I think this is their best album in the last 3) birds of pray or SFBM. However there has been enough good songs on these to suggest that If they can wake from their comfortable and contented slumber that a return to at least a mixture of classic rock (I Alone, All Over You, selling the drama, dolphins cry, sparkle, rattlesnake, lakinis juice, stage, waitress, shit towne, freaks, Insomnia and the hole in the universe), ballads (run to the water, turn my head, lightning crashes, we walk in the dream, they stood up for love) and the dark brooders (dam at otter creek, graze, where fishes go,pillar of davidson, white discussion, face and ghost, feel the quiet river rage).

That said they're still better than most bands and they've had some bad luck (releasing V just before 9/11) and to be honest some of their single choices have left a bit to be desired especially off birds of pray. How "she" didn't get released is a mystery or rivertown or light house or out to dry instead they chose the daggiest ones.

Ed needs to let the rest of the band write some songs, to get some different lyrical content and they all need to be a bit more aware that you can still lace up love songs or wishy washy songs with some good music or at least get some light and shade back into their albums.

Also with their concerts, they need to be proud of all their songs and embrace them. I can't wait to go to a concert and they don't play lightning crashes or I alone. In 6 concerts I have heard 2 songs off Secret Samadhi (Lakini's juice and turn my head). Pearl Jam play songs off all their albums and in a 3 concert stretch in 1 city they might play Alive once, so the fans who get it think they're heaps lucky, and the ones that don't get songs that are hardly ever played so they feel lucky too and the hard core fans can go to three or five concerts and hear nearly the entire back catalogue of the band

Live's concerts are heaps off the new album heaps off throwing copper, a fair few off the distance to here, jack off secret samadhi, jack off mental jewelry, jack off V (what ever happened to People Like You, transmit your love, like a soldier and hero of love), none of the rocky songs off birds of pray, so when you limit your back catalogue like that the concerts become formulaic.

I'm a live fan for life and I don't like it when bands newer stuff gets compared to their older stuff that evryone loves but when bands like u2 or coldplay or hoobastank or franz ferdinand are starting to sound heavier than live then I think the band needs to take stock and correct the ship. I don't think they're far away from being great again but it'll take some effort and no one said anything in life that's worthwhile is easy. GO LIVE

I get what your saying. i happen to like the new stuff as is but yeah it doesnt have the same soul kicker as TDTH did from start to finish but there are great songs in all just not whole albums like used to.

but yeah even i would mix the sets up more, for sure they have to move away from mostly radio hits.

[mrmcpheezy]

A less used form of writing??? It doesn't 'sit as tightly'?

How the hell is the formulaic bullshit that the last 2 albums consist of a 'less used form of writing'? ANYONE that has a knowledge of music and that can seperate enjoyment from objectivity can say what is well written and what is not. As music is by far the biggest part of my life, and I've been studying it for 14 years, I know that I myself can judge music writing.
It's not fucking opinion. You keep missing the point. Yes, SOME people connect with, and find Lives recent offerings pleasant and enjoy it (though I still fail to see how- it's all so cheesy...)
Sure, Live may be expressing themselves and the music and lyrics may reflect their current state of mind. But the resulting sound is certainly nothing original. In my opinion, it's far harder to write music that leans towards 'happier' aspects of life, without coming off as cheesy or uninspired. That doesn't mean it can't be done, but you can hardly claim that SFBM achieves it.

Music has been about structure, and the right sounds 'etc etc etc' for MANY years. Surely that is the main point? Surely artists should go out of their way to try and achieve a perfectly written song every time they compose? Classical music was originally very structured, and whilst over many years instrumentation, timbre, dynamics, ornamentation, and structure changed, composers that are still widely recognized today knew the rules before breaking them. Though I certainly can't claim to know anything about the history of art, I'm fairly sure I remember reading that Picasso's earliest works did follow the conventions of the time. (I'm not entirely sure though). Since I know nothing about it, I don't really want to compare the two.

I don't know what your point was about rap music. It's hardly like Live have created a controversial fan-spiltter of an album due to being unique and original- quite the opposite. And clearly we have different definitions of an open mind. The fact that you were insulting 'opera' music which you don't appear to know anything about proves that.

Very well put.

[fallen angel]

It's not fucking opinion. You keep missing the point. Yes, SOME people connect with, and find Lives recent offerings pleasant and enjoy it (though I still fail to see how- it's all so cheesy...)
Sure, Live may be expressing themselves and the music and lyrics may reflect their current state of mind. But the resulting sound is certainly nothing original. In my opinion, it's far harder to write music that leans towards 'happier' aspects of life, without coming off as cheesy or uninspired. That doesn't mean it can't be done, but you can hardly claim that SFBM achieves it.

Music has been about structure, and the right sounds 'etc etc etc' for MANY years. Surely that is the main point? Surely artists should go out of their way to try and achieve a perfectly written song every time they compose? Classical music was originally very structured, and whilst over many years instrumentation, timbre, dynamics, ornamentation, and structure changed, composers that are still widely recognized today knew the rules before breaking them. Though I certainly can't claim to know anything about the history of art, I'm fairly sure I remember reading that Picasso's earliest works did follow the conventions of the time. (I'm not entirely sure though). Since I know nothing about it, I don't really want to compare the two.

I don't know what your point was about rap music. It's hardly like Live have created a controversial fan-spiltter of an album due to being unique and original- quite the opposite. And clearly we have different definitions of an open mind. The fact that you were insulting 'opera' music which you don't appear to know anything about proves that.

i can see where your coming from but your missing my point. "perfectly written" to who? who gets to decide if its perfectly written? why does making music have to be about follow some rule? why cant they just say, 'fuck that' we'll make what we want and those who like it, listen to it, and those who dont, dont. and if they are still enjoying what they are doing they from there point of view their is no reason why they would quit or change. so you dont like the last few albums, thats fine, there were a couple of songs on their that even i didnt connect with. i feel home was cheesy. but other songs like river and wings i loved. that may be me being cheesy, but i dont really care, it makes me happy and thats all that matters. do you understand? and who said that in the beginning when they first started playing they didnt learn and follow music rules and now after over 15 yrs and 8 albums and a best of ( i include DOAD) they cant turn around and say, we can get inspiration from our own music ( where you think they are being repeatative) or get their inspiration more from where they are at personally, religiously, mentally rather than musically. what if they are just using music to tell a story or communicate rather than making music just for the sake of rocking on. they cant just make what everyone else wants them to for the sake of making good money, that would be what you call selling out. this is not a job for them, its a passion, their passion.

Havent they? maybe not controversial but it has started to split the fans, we are now either diciding to continue to buy new albums or not or we are sitting there trying to stick up for the band, fighting with each other. +LIVE+ fans can be damm bitchy!!! have you noticed? and it may not be completely unique for them but they are still one of a very few bands who are writing about religon, peace, love, light, high sense of oneself. to me they still have an edge on rock that not many go near.

im not saying you have to have the same thoughts as me or anyone else for that matter, thats the beauty of opinion. art/music/creativity is what ever you want it to be.

This post has been edited by fallen angel: Oct 25 2006, 11:41 pm

[mrmcpheezy]

your missing my point.

God fucking dammit.

why cant they just say, 'fuck that' we'll make what we want and those who like it, listen to it, and those who dont, dont.

They, of course, can, but it doesn't it bother you at all that they want to make completely predictiable crap?

Fucking think about it. There are song structures and chord progressions and rhythmic patterns and etc etc etc that have been used a million times before. Doesn't the thought of them sitting down and deciding to use nothing but these typical, overused, standard, generic, thoughtless things bother you even a little bit? Sure, you enjoy the music in spite of this, cool, but still, doesn't it bother you that they're not doing anything that requires even the smallest bit of thought or creativity or originality or technical ability?

They're not putting any thought into what they're doing. None. At all. Every aspect of their music has been predetermined by other artists that have done it all before them, over and over again. You talk about how music shouldn't be about following rules, and then you stick up for "artists" like live who do nothing but follow the typical pop-rock template. How does this not bother you? Do you enjoy the music so much that you're willing to knowingly blind yourself to these facts?

Face it: anyone could do what live is doing right now. They're not doing anything but filling in the small gaps in the standard pop-rock set up.

and if they are still enjoying what they are doing they from there point of view their is no reason why they would quit or change.

Of course they're not going to stop doing something that they enjoy, but whether or not they will isn't the issue here: it's wheter or not they should.

so you dont like the last few albums, thats fine, there were a couple of songs on their that even i didnt connect with. i feel home was cheesy. but other songs like river and wings i loved. that may be me being cheesy, but i dont really care, it makes me happy and thats all that matters.

Of course music and its creation is all about enjoyment. But I find the fact that you enjoy the music just as irrelevant as the fact that I don't enjoy it. What actually matters in the discussion we're having is the manner in which it was written. Had they written the last few albums differently, maybe I'd like them and you wouldn't. Whatever. Whether or not any of us like, love, dislike, hate, or feel indifferent toward their music isn't really important. What is important is that they have stopped doing everything that sets artists apart from the rest of society: they've stopped inventing, they've stopped pushing the limits of their art form, they've stoppped trying new things, the've stopped pushing themselve to improve, they've stopped putting thought into every single detail of every song the put together: they've stopped trying.

they cant just make what everyone else wants them to for the sake of making good money, that would be what you call selling out. this is not a job for them, its a passion, their passion.

They have sold out and it's pretty clear that they're no longer passionate about what they're doing. People who are passionate about art do all of the things I mentioned above, and they're not doing any of those things anymore. Stop fooling yourself with empty statements like this.

thats the beauty of opinion. art/music/creativity is what ever you want it to be.

No, it isn't.

This post has been edited by mrmcpheezy: Oct 26 2006, 4:26 pm

[fallen angel]

God fucking dammit.
They, of course, can, but it doesn't it bother you at all that they want to make completely predictiable crap?

Fucking think about it. There are song structures and chord progressions and rhythmic patterns and etc etc etc that have been used a million times before. Doesn't the thought of them sitting down and deciding to use nothing but these typical, overused, standard, generic, thoughtless things bother you even a little bit? Sure, you enjoy the music in spite of this, cool, but still, doesn't it bother you that they're not doing anything that requires even the smallest bit of thought or creativity or originality or technical ability?

They're not putting any thought into what they're doing. None. At all. Every aspect of their music has been predetermined by other artists that have done it all before them, over and over again. You talk about how music shouldn't be about following rules, and then you stick up for "artists" like live who do nothing but follow the typical pop-rock template. How does this not bother you? Do you enjoy the music so much that you're willing to knowingly blind yourself to these facts?

Face it: anyone could do what live is doing right now. They're not doing anything but filling in the small gaps in the standard pop-rock set up.
Of course they're not going to stop doing something that they enjoy, but whether or not they will isn't the issue here: it's wheter or not they should.
Of course music and its creation is all about enjoyment. But I find the fact that you enjoy the music just as irrelevant as the fact that I don't enjoy it. What actually matters in the discussion we're having is the manner in which it was written. Had they written the last few albums differently, maybe I'd like them and you wouldn't. Whatever. Whether or not any of us like, love, dislike, hate, or feel indifferent toward their music isn't really important. What is important is that they have stopped doing everything that sets artists apart from the rest of society: they've stopped inventing, they've stopped pushing the limits of their art form, they've stoppped trying new things, the've stopped pushing themselve to improve, they've stopped putting thought into every single detail of every song the put together: they've stopped trying.
They have sold out and it's pretty clear that they're no longer passionate about what they're doing. People who are passionate about art do all of the things I mentioned above, and they're not doing any of those things anymore. Stop fooling yourself with empty statements like this.
No, it isn't.

as i said i can see your point of view i just dont look at it from that angle, maybe me being naive still thats my stance on the issue.
Alot of bands start sounding the same once they find their sound, and while its new and fresh to begin with it will eventually not be a new band, thats why the new bands always get the most radio time etc etc and until they too being old and get replaced with the next new thing.

Maybe they do need to re-group and spend more time on the next album and find their roots again, but they are 33 year old family men now, i would love to see you become original and creative while still getting the messages you thought important out there after this many years and albums. they are who they are, they cant change that completely, otherwise they would be trying to be something/ someone their not. this is obviously their sound, voice, whatever you want to call it, and while yeah i can now agree after your explanation that they do need to really immerse themselves in the making of the next album, but i cant help but say that their music still has an affect on me unlike any other band does, admittedly not as much on the new albums as on the older but you get that, and you dont know what the future will bring out.

thanks for the explanation mrmcpheezy, it was the first time that i have come across that you have actually taken the time to explain to me anyway rather than just critize. i'll admit i havent studied music since high school, thought music is a hugh part of my life, what i get from it comes from heart rather than so much from a professional music perspective.

[Wambangalang]

if they do call it quits i think they need to go right out there and come out with something unexpected. They need to do something arrogant and ballsy like release a statement to say they're breaking up, and that their next album will be what all the fans have always wanted: "Throwing Copper 2".

If they actually did that, could you imagine the press they would get? It would be the most anticipated rock album of this decade. Who cares if it sucked in the end.

[cimarron]

I forgot to note who wrote the quote below but.........wtf did 9/11 have to do with V being released? Frankly, 9/11 mattered way more to people in the US (as no doubt it should) than the rest of us. V is far from "good", regardless of when it was released, 9/11 had nothing to do with it.


"""That said they're still better than most bands and they've had some bad luck (releasing V just before 9/11)"""

[Live333]

I forgot to note who wrote the quote below but.........wtf did 9/11 have to do with V being released? Frankly, 9/11 mattered way more to people in the US (as no doubt it should) than the rest of us. V is far from "good", regardless of when it was released, 9/11 had nothing to do with it.
"""That said they're still better than most bands and they've had some bad luck (releasing V just before 9/11)"""

V is the best live album in the past three, because it is the most rocky of the last three, because they actually tried different things on that album, because half the songs don't crap on about ed's wife or daughters.


With regards to the 9/11 comment was that obviously it would've had an impact on album sales definitley in america and also around the world, can't say that the first thing I did when I saw the planes crash into the WTC was to go down the street and check out the latest releases at sanity!

Also Cimmarron you must like something on V if you are any sort of self respecting Live fan

[Tabucky]

Also Cimmarron you must like something on V if you are any sort of self respecting Live fan

Huh? Says who? I do like some songs on V, but if I didn't, and I still LOVED all of the first four albums, played them often, and avidly went to every Live concert in my area, would I not be a "self respecting Live fan" if I didn't like anything off V? It's fucking stupid statements like this that piss people off on here. V is objectively not even close to being amazing, and even though it is different from all of their other albums, it is generally a piece of shit that Ed completely wrote and decided for himself. He tries to look and sound like a tough off-the-streets rapper-rocker, which is really quite embarassing. V was the beginning of Live's downfall.

[cimarron]

V is the best live album in the past three, because it is the most rocky of the last three, because they actually tried different things on that album, because half the songs don't crap on about ed's wife or daughters.
With regards to the 9/11 comment was that obviously it would've had an impact on album sales definitley in america and also around the world, can't say that the first thing I did when I saw the planes crash into the WTC was to go down the street and check out the latest releases at sanity!

Also Cimmarron you must like something on V if you are any sort of self respecting Live fan

If you think V is the best live album of the last 3 that's your opinion, my opinion differs, but that's ok.

The impact of 9/11 has nothing to do with whether or not V is a good album and I doubt whether poor sales can be blamed on that event. Are you really suggesting that no-one went and bought a cd after 9/11.....for how long afterwards are you suggesting this went on? Is it not possible that people went out and bought cd's by their favourite artists to make themselves feel better? Is it not possible that people thought that they were not going to let such acts of terrorism interfere with they way they lived their lives, and therefore continued to do the things they usually do (like buy cd's)? Is it also not possible that people enmasse didn't buy V because they didn't like it?

And lastly let's look at "self respect" shall we? Self respect is a proper regard for one's own person, character , or reputation. In other words being true to oneself. Briefly, being true to one's self means you don't lie, you don't do or say something just to gain the approval of another, you give an honest opinion of what you think and feel inside, and you do what you need to do so you feel ok about everything that is "inside" of you. Now let's look at "fan" (as opposed to "fanatic"), a devoted admirer........
So a "self respecting Live fan" would have to give an opinion that was true to their "self", any other opinion would not be "self-respecting". I didn't write that there was nothing on V that I liked, as McPheezy is often at pains to point out there IS a difference between something being "good" (or otherwise) and something being "liked" or "not liked". That I don't consider V to be "good" is also just an opinion to which I am entitled, and you my friend are entitled to yours.

[Hoodstock]

This was my old topic but I didn't make the poll. I also thought it was closed.

Can anyone tell me how to set up a poll? Everytime I try it doesn't turn out.

[Wambangalang]

why does no one reply to my posts like im some kinda fuickn ghosT!!!???

grrrrrrrrrrrrrr

throwing copper 2!!

yeh

[fallen angel]

Hey Wambangalang

there seems to be an 'in' crowd and a 'out' crowd on this web page. the ppl who always get replied to and those of us who get generally ignored as we havent been around much, dont say something on a day to day basis and probably havent met up with ppl at concerts from here.

just try to say something that will be sure to piss someone off and then you can be assured to get a response. haha

i agree with TC2 btw and while im sure it would get them alot of publicity to say they are breaking up after the next release, i for one really dont want them to do that, i will admit there new stuff isnt comparable to their older stuff but i still love waiting for what there next going to come up with and love their concerts.

[Live333]

Regardless of what anyone thinks about V (I just think if you like the band there must be at least a couple of songs on there that you like. Also why we do have to hack on any album as being the worst, obviously they haven't been as good and probably which one of the last three you think is best and worst is probably like arguing which of britney spears albums was her best or worst.)

Also cimarron (sorry I spelled your name wrong last time), you don't have to labour the point with the 9/11 thing you don't also have to be so indignant about people having a different opinion to you when you obviously don't like it either or you wouldn't have written a novel about self respecting.

All I reckon is that, I didn't mind the album, obviously the release date didn't help their cause. Obviously people didn't stop buying albums but being an american band and the tragedy occuring in america would not be an ideal climate to sell albums in. I as a live fan don't hate any of their albums but am hoping for a return to their former glory.