Should Live Call It Quits?, Is it time? Options

[mrmcpheezy]

"On here"??, I didn't mention this board by saying that, did I? Don't imply things I haven't wrote down here please... Tnx!

And it's not 'fucking ridiculous' to say it in mrmcpheezylanguage. I know anough people from my class I was in years ago, that everyday came up with music and songs and stuff just to show the rest they were listening to something 'cool', 'nobody knows the band','it's orgininal', and that things you know. When the band or solo artist got a hit, they were like...ahh no, commercial....they are making no good music anymore.... but it was the same f*ckin' music mrmcpheezy!!! The music didn't changed because it was a hit than....

So don't deny that they sit around at schoool, listening to music they don't like simply because it's complicated. Cauz they did!! I can't imagine they listening ever to the music when they are all alone on their room or something...maybe they didn't listen to music at all when they were alone

Maybe this way of dealing with music is fadin' away when those people get older (although I see the same way by adults often), but you can't deny it.

And please read my posts twice, and write a comment AFTER that...

ohw,and again: WRONG.

Ok, so there are dumbasses that are in like fucking high school that listen to music in order to get attention or some shit like that.

So forgive me, I was talking about actual rational thinking, at least semi-mature people.

I'm an economist to an extent, I assume people act rationally. When you take rationality out of the equation, anything is possible.

This is just like pointing to people that certain brands of shoes (that are actually less comfortable and more expensive) simply to make themselves look cool in an attempt to disprove the law of demand.

Nice try, though. You can stfu now.

[mrmcpheezy]

My misunderstanding - for once I actually now get your point. Though I do think you could have been a little clearer as you don't actually mean just written, you mean written and performed.

It's cool. I'm just, mostly for the sake of discussion, trying to think of the vocalist as an instrument used. What voice (or instrument) you want to use for a certain part is a choice made in the composition of a song.

But yeah, it's all good, I think you get my point.

[crustyclown80]

This is stupid people. Why is anyone even voting that Live continues to release garbage?

They had a somewhat decent reputation before these recent releases and by continuing to put out noise that does not sell just is not working out in their favor.

No one knows who or remembers Live as it is. Do we really want people to start remember Live as the band that fell and just could not get up?

This post has been edited by crustyclown80: Oct 12 2006, 6:23 pm

[SecretInsomnia]

This is just like pointing to people that certain brands of shoes (that are actually less comfortable and more expensive) simply to make themselves look cool in an attempt to disprove the law of demand.

yes, indeed....sadly it's just like that !!

Nice try, though. You can stfu now.

nice try? yeah, I think so too.
and i can stfu now? yes, i can... but why should I?

This post has been edited by SecretInsomnia: Oct 13 2006, 5:55 am

[SecretInsomnia]

This is stupid people. Why is anyone even voting that Live continues to release garbage?

They had a somewhat decent reputation before these recent releases and by continuing to put out noise that does not sell just is not working out in their favor.

No one knows who or remembers Live as it is. Do we really want people to start remember Live as the band that fell and just could not get up?

And IF they should release some stuff that's better (or to no start a new discussion: is more liked by the most part of the Live fans), than the songs of V, BoP and SFBM, don't you want them to stay than in that case?

[GvB]

The reason you listen to a song is because you like it, but the reason you like a song is because of how it was written (aka: it's objective aspects). Take any song that you like. If it had been written differently (aka: had it's objective aspects been different), you'd either like it more or less. This is, obviously, true of everyone. Why is this such a difficult concept for you to grasp?

You listen to the songs you do because you like them, but you like them because of their objective aspects.

But liking or disliking the song or the album itself is a subjective thing, because it has to do with your own emotion you feel by it and that has to do with your own taste of well written and with what speaks to you for whatever what reason (your character or because of what happened to you or just because you like a certain kind of music just because you like it)!

A song's tempo, key signature, time signature, chord progressions, the timbre of the vocalist, the guitar effects, the dynamics, the balance of all the instruments...all of these things determine a song's sound,

To this far allright with me.

which is obviously what determines whether or not you like a song.
And all of these things can be measured objectively.

No, here is where it goes wrong in my opinion, because LIKING (or even LOVING) the song itself is an emotional proces WHICH HAPPENS IN A LISTENER IT IS THE QUESTION IF THE FEELING OF THE LISTENER AND THE FEELING OF THE BAND, THE SONG OR ALBUM CAN CONNECT TO EACH OTHER and that's why it's a OF QUESTION OF TASTE!

And emotional processes and taste differ from person to person.
A group can do as much their best to do everything to make someone liking or even loving a song or even a whole album, but if the listener doesn't like it than a group can try and try for the rest of their lifes but it won't work.
Then they can better try if someone else likes it or write totally something else, but then they have the risk that someone who loves the old song/album doesn't like the new one.

For example Live can do everything to make you love Songs From Black Mountain, but you obviously don't like it.
But I do.
Songs From Black Mountain is in my personal top 3 at this moment because it's full of happiness, love and a swoon of idealism in my opinion and it makes ME feel good.
You love Secret Samadhi because YOU like the sound of the songs on Secret Samadhi, but I don't like it that much because it makes me feel fucking depressed.

This isn't to say that you should determine what song's to listen to by sitting down and measuring all of these things: no one does that.

Sorry, but you gave me the feeling that you did that.
But I was wrong in thinking that about you.

What I'm saying is that if a song you like were written differently, you'd either like it more or less. This relates to live in that: if their recent songs were written differently, there are a lot of us here who would like them a lot more.

Most people would, that's what everybody can tell from just reading the posts, okay.
But that doesn't mean that the majority can go ahead and offense the minority by looking down on them.
Because musical taste has to do with people's deepest self and their deepest emotions.
So if you offense peoples taste then you may hurt them very much.
And I don't hope that you want to do that.

By the way: I'm pro stopping to compare Live with Britney Spears cause that's nonsense to do that.
They are too different.

GvB.

This post has been edited by GvB: Oct 13 2006, 9:47 am

[crustyclown80]

And IF they should release some stuff that's better (or to no start a new discussion: is more liked by the most part of the Live fans), than the songs of V, BoP and SFBM, don't you want them to stay than in that case?

No. That would be rather selfish of me and you would it not?

[mrmcpheezy]

But liking or disliking the song or the album itself is a subjective thing, because it has to do with your own emotion you feel by it and that has to do with your own taste of well written and with what speaks to you for whatever what reason (your character or because of what happened to you or just because you like a certain kind of music just because you like it)!

Do you think you're disagreeing with me here? When did I ever say anything in opposition to this?

No, here is where it goes wrong in my opinion, because LIKING (or even LOVING) the song itself is an emotional proces WHICH HAPPENS IN A LISTENER IT IS THE QUESTION IF THE FEELING OF THE LISTENER AND THE FEELING OF THE BAND, THE SONG OR ALBUM CAN CONNECT TO EACH OTHER and that's why it's a OF QUESTION OF TASTE!

And emotional processes and taste differ from person to person.

I don't think you even understand what we're talking about.

Seriously, I think you're going on about some shit other than what I'm actually saying. This part of your post doesn't even reply to any of the points I made.

Yes, tastes and preferences differ from person to person. Again, take any goddamn song that you like and someone else doesn't. Had it been written differently (had it's objective aspects been different) made you wouldn't like it and the other person would. Clearly, liking or disliking a song is subjective, but whether or not you like a song is determined by it's objective aspects because had the song been written differently, you'd either like it more or less.

Think about it with regards to food. Take a piece of pizza. Let's say it's got a lot of meat on it. Personally, I love meat, so pizza with lots of meat is delicious. If there were less meat on it (if it's objective aspects were different) I wouldn't like it as much. If it had no meat, but instead had anchoves and pineapple (again, if it's objective aspects were different) I wouldn't like it at all.

But someone else would.

Do you get it, or not?

Tastes differ from person to person, but whether or not you like a song, or a piece of pizza, or anything in the goddamn world is determined by what that thing is in objective reality, and what different aspects comprise it.

You don't like and dislike food at random, you like or dislike certain foods based on what's in it, how those things taste, how they taste in combination. Change the things, and/or the combination, and whether or not you like it will inevitibly change.

The same is true of music.

If you can't reply directly to that point, don't reply at all. Please, do not reply again telling me that tastes differ from person to person: I know that, and it doesn't at all contradict my goddamn point.

A group can do as much their best to do everything to make someone liking or even loving a song or even a whole album, but if the listener doesn't like it than a group can try and try for the rest of their lifes but it won't work.
Then they can better try if someone else likes it or write totally something else, but then they have the risk that someone who loves the old song/album doesn't like the new one.

For example Live can do everything to make you love Songs From Black Mountain, but you obviously don't like it.
But I do.
Songs From Black Mountain is in my personal top 3 at this moment because it's full of happiness, love and a swoon of idealism in my opinion and it makes ME feel good.
You love Secret Samadhi because YOU like the sound of the songs on Secret Samadhi, but I don't like it that much because it makes me feel fucking depressed.

I really don't have any idea what you're talking about here.

Most people would, that's what everybody can tell from just reading the posts, okay.
But that doesn't mean that the majority can go ahead and offense the minority by looking down on them.
Because musical taste has to do with people's deepest self and their deepest emotions.
So if you offense peoples taste then you may hurt them very much.
And I don't hope that you want to do that.

Who's putting who down for their musical taste? I haven't. I haven't seen anyone else do it. As I've said a hundred times before: like whatever the fuck you feel like liking. I don't give a shit.

[GvB]

And while the current boring, thoughtless music that they're writing is still going to stir up emotions in some of the more shallow music listeners,

This is what I'm talking about!

You have called people who like the current music (for example "SFBM" and "V") shallow listeners.
And that is offensive to me.
And I tell you why.

"V" is in my opinion my number 2 and "SFBM" number 3 ("TDTH" is my number one).

I like these albums most because I feel supported by them, because they are sounding optimistic or have at least an optimistic something in it (even "Overcome"), as well musically as lyricly!

Secret Samadhi (the album a lot of people like here best, which I respect) can't give me the support and the optimistic feeling that I'm looking for when I listen to music.

Because "Secret Samadhi" is in my opinion full of things like fear, sadness, emptiness and a doom atmosphere (as well in the music as in the lyrics) which gives me the depressing feeling that the end of the world is near.
I don't want to feel that way because I've been there before and I've been through other painfull things which I have already told in the off-topic zone and I tell you that it had a quiet unhealthy effect on me (thank God I came through it).

"TDTH" tells me that there is more than darkness and that you can find the light and that it is possible to be a person who is loving and positive and that that is better than sinking away in the darkness.

"V" is an album that gives this message to me: get the fuck out of the darkness and take action and please try to understand that the most important thing is love and stop believing that all the people who show up on tv and tell you to be afraid want the best for you!
Get rid of your fear and make a positive change!
Okay the lyrics are easier to understand than on the albums before and maybe the music sounds easier too (although it has a lot of influences from other kinds of music and that is well done in my opinion), but I have heard Ed telling in an interview (a long time ago) that he wants as much people as possible to understand the message of "V".

"SFBM" is to me an album that tells, okay, there is still a lot wrong in the world (listen to "Home"), but there is love (for example Ed's love for his daughters in "Love shines").
And "Wings" is a song that can help you to pull something positive out of a negative thing in your life.
And I have a question to everybody: who doesn't want a love that eases your pain?

Maybe you are gonna ask: where is the anger and agression in the music and in Ed's voice?
Well, I guess that anger does not fit with the message of love Ed wants to tell us now!

This is what I think of it and if you think now that I'm shallow than I have a question for you: why do you like the lack of hope that speaks from "Everybody is anxious. For the coming of the crises. The collapse of the justice" (Century), and don't appreciate the hope in "My faith in love is like blood, I spill it freely for some" (Forever may not be long enough) or in "The weight that lays on you shoulders could be the wings that carry you home" (Wings).
Why does it seems like that desperation is deeper than hope to you?

GvB.

This post has been edited by GvB: Oct 14 2006, 5:27 pm

[Diane]

Great post GvB.
I agree with you.

I've been a Live fan since Throwing Copper.
But, the moment I felt connected to them, in a deeper spiritual way, was when I heard TDTH. BOP and SFBM also make me feel this way. Not all of the songs, but alot of them.
You look around the world and see so much hatred and destruction. On Friday night I saw them in concert and when Ed got us all to sing the word " Love", it brought tears to my eyes.

My 8 year old son absolutely loves SFBM. If you asked him to vote on his favourite album, then that's it. His 2 favourites are Love Shines and Get Ready.
People bag the album and the songs. Why? Because they are sweet gentle songs.
They don't 'rock'. Do all songs need to be heavy?
Do the lyrics need to be aggresive to be considred good?

It's a simple message that Ed gives us through lyrics. Some people don't want to hear it.

I think there are 3 types of Live fans.
The fans who want the drums and guitars and it doesn't matter what the song is about, as long as it sounds good. Heavier early stuff, where the vocals aren't that important.
The fans who actually listen to what the song is about, understand its meaning and can connect with it.
And the fans who like everything for different reasons. (Me)

[SecretInsomnia]

Great post GvB.
I agree with you.

I've been a Live fan since Throwing Copper.
But, the moment I felt connected to them, in a deeper spiritual way, was when I heard TDTH. BOP and SFBM also make me feel this way. Not all of the songs, but alot of them.
You look around the world and see so much hatred and destruction. On Friday night I saw them in concert and when Ed got us all to sing the word " Love", it brought tears to my eyes.

It's nice to read how the more pop-rock sound of Live can give people the same deep or good or great feeling that the early Live songs gave people, e.g. LC etc. I always thought that the newer songs couldn't thouch people that deep, but it's great to read they can to several people!
To me the positive and bright message that speaks from the new songs can have a very positive effect on me. But to me they don't have that deeper feeling like songs at TDTH, TC and also SS (although they weren't all positive sounding) they had something deep that just touches me and always will.

It's a simple message that Ed gives us through lyrics. Some people don't want to hear it.

I think there are 3 types of Live fans.
The fans who want the drums and guitars and it doesn't matter what the song is about, as long as it sounds good. Heavier early stuff, where the vocals aren't that important.
The fans who actually listen to what the song is about, understand its meaning and can connect with it.
And the fans who like everything for different reasons. (Me)

I agree with you that there are those types of Live fans (although you it's not always easy to classify them.
But than this line:
'Heavier early stuff, where the vocals aren't that important.'
I can't agree with you there. the vocals have made the early Live songs to what they were! The rough real postgrunge rock sounding of the songs (that caused that so much people liked them) were ofcourse important, although it was a very different side of Ed. So the Live vocals aren't not less important in the past and maybe more important!

but whatever, GvB and Diane (and many others) thanks for sharing your feelings of how the new work can also though enough people

[GvB]

SecretInsomnia and Diane:
I'm relieved that there are still people left here who feel about the same as I do.
You know, it's weak from me, but I got insecure by reading replies made by people who keep on telling that the older albums are better.
Then I ask myself: do I miss the point?
But now I know for ones and for all (I hope, and otherwise please remind me), that I don't miss THE point at all!
There isn't only ONE point in this at all, I knew that but I got doubt because of that negative replies!
There are several points, points of view and everybody has his or her own, and one point of few is not better or worse and preferring something else then other people doesn't mean that you or the person with the different opinion is shallow or has a shallow taste.
It just means that you want or need the music to fill you with something else then what other people want or need to be filled with and that has to do with your spirit and what your spirit needs.
(Why didn't I bring up the spiritual thing earlier by the way? I regret that I didn't).

Diane: I hope you don't mind but I agree with SecretInsomnia in the opinion of the vocals, the vocals in the past are just rougher, because the music was rawer and that fits with each other.
But now it's softer, which doesn't mean less intense to me, I think it has a warmth in it which I experience as intense.
But raw is not better than warm and warm is not better than raw.
And that Ed writes easier sounding lyrics doesn't mean that the message in it got less deep.
I mean what's shallow in this line of Wings:
----------
The weight that lays on your shoulders, could be the wings that carry you home
----------
?

The way Ed sings that convinces me from that and I'm on my way to find out the way it works.

And if anybody comes up with "I could have written that too" (someone said that long time ago about "Simple Creed"), then I will ask: well, why didn't you?

By the way: that I like MJ, TC and SS less than the other albums doesn't mean that I don't like them at all.
I love 10,000 Years (peace is now) from MJ, Lightning Crashes from TC, and Ghost from SS.

By the way my mind is on a verse of Ghost right now, I mean this one:
----------
Everybody has a ghost.
Everybody has a ghost who sings like you do.
Yours is not like mine.
But it's alright, keep it up.
----------

About the types of Live fans:
Sorry, but I don't like to be one type of something (maybe that's my fault) I belong the most to type 2 but the sound has to convince me and I don't care how it does that.
I don't want to investigate that, because I like (and that's my feeling) to see music as art which has something spiritual you just can't explain but which works good for me.
I don't want to see and treat music like some scientific object, although I know that it's possible and I know a little on music theory.
But everybody who likes to treat (Live's) music that way: just go ahead, but leave me alone with my way of experiencing music and leave other people alone with their way of experiencing (Live's) music too!

To end this post I would like to bring this on as well to sing it to myself as to sing it to you all:
----------
I wait for you to understand,
that we need each other.
We gotta love each other.
----------

By the way: thanks, Ed for your inspiration!

GvB.

This post has been edited by GvB: Oct 15 2006, 12:13 pm

[GvB]

I've been a Live fan since Throwing Copper.
But, the moment I felt connected to them, in a deeper spiritual way, was when I heard TDTH. BOP and SFBM also make me feel this way. Not all of the songs, but alot of them.
You look around the world and see so much hatred and destruction. On Friday night I saw them in concert and when Ed got us all to sing the word " Love", it brought tears to my eyes.

Diane: I've listened again to BoP, there is a lot on love and being in love (and there is a little on sex) and a little on feeling annoyed by people who just live their lives for themselves and a song on Ed's first daughter and also a take action song ("Bring the people together") and an anti-war song ("What are we fighting for?").
That's already a lot to me, but I've got the feeling that there is more in it, can you enlighten me?

GvB.

This post has been edited by GvB: Oct 15 2006, 12:32 pm

[sherocker]

It's a simple message that Ed gives us through lyrics. Some people don't want to hear it.

but it's just the 'simple' part that bothers people!!

[Diane]

"Heavier early stuff, where the vocals aren't that important."

I probably should've used to different words to explain what I meant here.

What I was trying to say, was that with the older stuff, I think that the music was more important than the lyrics. The earlier music was raw. They were young, they wrote songs, they played music. I'm not saying I don't like it, because I do. I'm not always meditating
I think that with the newer stuff, the lyrics are on a different level. They come from Ed's inner self/higher consciousness (whatever you want to call it). They have a message and a purpose and I can relate to it.

"That's already a lot to me, but I've got the feeling that there is more in it, can you enlighten me?"

I don't think I need to enlighten you GvB. I think you understand it already.

When I heard TC, I liked Live. They had some great songs and they were one of my favourite bands. Once I heard TDTH, I realised that they were writing songs about what I was thinking about. Things that were important to me.

So the message is..... if Love and Peace don't happen soon, we'll have no planet left. The fighting and destruction of Earth is getting worse every day.
The worse the world gets, the more people start to become interested and concerned. Ed being one of them. So, he is going to write songs about what is important to him, and hoping that people will take notice.
I understand where he is at, because I'm there too. Some people aren't interested in what's happening, so therefore, the songs that have these kind of messages in them, wont be as well liked by people who don't understand them, or don't want to understand them.