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[FishOutaWater]

I don't think that the people at the origin of some of the religions, like Jesus and the Buddha, thought that they were starting a religion, nor did they want to. But when a movement started, people, over the course of time, clinged to it. Tried to carry it forward. Interpret it. Make a structure out of it. Develop traditions and symbols around it. Teach it. The central idea of a religion is like the Ring in the Lord of the Rings. It brings out those who want to use it for its power. It brings out those who need to rely on it as a crutch or an excuse. People who have done bad things in the past can rationalize and justify themselves and their past actions in the refuge of religion. Those in power can keep the poor class under control by the moral code and fear that comes from religious beliefs. Women have been subjugated and oppressed for many centuries under the patriarchical structure of religion and it has been enmeshed into society. Religion itself became political and a source of power, control and wealth. State governments used it, starting with the Roman empire. Those in the political structure of the religion itself used it and abused it. When people get involved, the predictable result ensued - people defiled and distorted the origin. After thousands of years - that is a lot of defilement. As people grabbed ahold of the original message, the origin became like a clean piece of felt that picked up bunch of dirty dust and lint - with people being the dirt and lint. And soon, it picked up so much lint, that you can't even see the clean piece of felt underneath it all anymore.

Compare the Vatican, with its immeasurable wealth and power and political control to a simple, poor Jewish man with nothing but the clothes on his back preaching to poor people to turn the other cheek, show compassion and love for one another, to feed the hungry and seek social justice. Would Jesus have let one person starve to death while he sat on a thrown and looked at a priceless painting on his wall? Why does the Pope?

[OutToDry]

I think thats a possibility, and might make him more of a shameless capitalist than a religious nut. In fact, that always seemed like a big purpose of religion. Leaders just milk their followers for cash, sex, etc. Fortunately religious nuts are just contained to themselves, they're isolated from anyone who doesn't believe their ways. Their impact can be pretty limited. There are many ways to look at it. On the other extreme end of the spectrum, maybe those religious nuts deserve to have Ed take their money.

BINGO, we have agreement.

[FishOutaWater]

BINGO, we have agreement.

and to love: a God
and to fear: a flame
and to burn: a crowd that has a name


The poet has become the preacher...

[World Dreamer]

So does this make Live a religion? THEY ARE DIVIDING US!

[Hoodstock]

The worst of a group is usually what creates the stereotype.

Not all "religious" people or leaders are nuts or crooks. Some are the greatest people on the planet because of what they believe.

I'm not talking religious leaders - I'm talking religions themselves. The idea of religion is pure, and within each faiths own context it is, but in reality it inherently has created evil throughout the world.

Just look at how Lowe's dropped ads for "All American Muslim" because of right wing christian complaints about sponsoring a Muslim show. Now it's caused divide locally, because Michigan is home to the largest Muslim population outside the Middle East and Indonesia. People support the chain for not supporting the faith and others bash them for religious bias. Bottom line, many preach love and peace but practice intolerance of anything outside their faith.

In fact, more people have been discriminated against, persecuted, harmed and killed over religious differences than for any other reason throughout world history.

It's also great to see how people can discredit religions of the past and of today as incorrect or myth, but they fail to realize the faith they were taught or that they latched onto is the same as the rest.

[Sonic Tonic]

I don't think that the people at the origin of some of the religions, like Jesus and the Buddha, thought that they were starting a religion, nor did they want to. But when a movement started, people, over the course of time, clinged to it. Tried to carry it forward. Interpret it. Make a structure out of it. Develop traditions and symbols around it. Teach it. The central idea of a religion is like the Ring in the Lord of the Rings. It brings out those who want to use it for its power. It brings out those who need to rely on it as a crutch or an excuse. People who have done bad things in the past can rationalize and justify themselves and their past actions in the refuge of religion. Those in power can keep the poor class under control by the moral code and fear that comes from religious beliefs. Women have been subjugated and oppressed for many centuries under the patriarchical structure of religion and it has been enmeshed into society. Religion itself became political and a source of power, control and wealth. State governments used it, starting with the Roman empire. Those in the political structure of the religion itself used it and abused it. When people get involved, the predictable result ensued - people defiled and distorted the origin. After thousands of years - that is a lot of defilement. As people grabbed ahold of the original message, the origin became like a clean piece of felt that picked up bunch of dirty dust and lint - with people being the dirt and lint. And soon, it picked up so much lint, that you can't even see the clean piece of felt underneath it all anymore.

Compare the Vatican, with its immeasurable wealth and power and political control to a simple, poor Jewish man with nothing but the clothes on his back preaching to poor people to turn the other cheek, show compassion and love for one another, to feed the hungry and seek social justice. Would Jesus have let one person starve to death while he sat on a thrown and looked at a priceless painting on his wall? Why does the Pope?

Thank you. Thank you for always (well A LOT of times) expressing your thoughts that are so close to mine in a way that I can't through writing.
You sir have a gift for the art of communicating through writing. So I can only imagine what a nice debate about such topics would be with you. And I and my friends/family have these. But as Polish we love our vodka (much to my detriment), so sometimes things get heated! lol. How do you go from discussing Religion and Human evolution to fighting about the definition of certain foods (lasagna and pizza was the recent) in a span of 1 hour.

[Sonic Tonic]

I'm not talking religious leaders - I'm talking religions themselves. The idea of religion is pure, and within each faiths own context it is, but in reality it inherently has created evil throughout the world.

Just look at how Lowe's dropped ads for "All American Muslim" because of right wing christian complaints about sponsoring a Muslim show. Now it's caused divide locally, because Michigan is home to the largest Muslim population outside the Middle East and Indonesia. People support the chain for not supporting the faith and others bash them for religious bias. Bottom line, many preach love and peace but practice intolerance of anything outside their faith.

In fact, more people have been discriminated against, persecuted, harmed and killed over religious differences than for any other reason throughout world history.

It's also great to see how people can discredit religions of the past and of today as incorrect or myth, but they fail to realize the faith they were taught or that they latched onto is the same as the rest.

Really?? about Michigan? Largest population? I would have never known unless I searched for it? Wow, you learn something new everyday. Thanks. I'm gonna read up on this more.

I should add: I am not being sarcastic for I am a sarcastic bastard to a fault lately, especially online.

[FishOutaWater]

Thank you. Thank you for always (well A LOT of times) expressing your thoughts that are so close to mine in a way that I can't through writing.
You sir have a gift for the art of communicating through writing. So I can only imagine what a nice debate about such topics would be with you. And I and my friends/family have these. But as Polish we love our vodka (much to my detriment), so sometimes things get heated! lol. How do you go from discussing Religion and Human evolution to fighting about the definition of certain foods (lasagna and pizza was the recent) in a span of 1 hour.

Thank you. I wish that I could have dinner, vodka and a healthy debate with you and your friends and family. I bet that is a fun time.

[Sonic Tonic]

Thank you. I wish that I could have dinner, vodka and a healthy debate with you and your friends and family. I bet that is a fun time.

We shall see in a few days where we get to worship Presents and then maybe Jesus. ahhh good ole' Christmess

This post has been edited by Sonic Tonic: Dec 20 2011, 3:48 pm

[Hoodstock]

Really?? about Michigan? Largest population? I would have never known unless I searched for it? Wow, you learn something new everyday. Thanks. I'm gonna read up on this more.

I should add: I am not being sarcastic for I am a sarcastic bastard to a fault lately, especially online.

Just look for Dearborn, Michigan. That's the city where all of the Muslims have migrated to and where the show is filmed.

[dancing queen]

Aha. That was it. 2006. That was an uncharacteristically religious post for Ed at the time. It came WAY before all of this Christian rock stuff. I think it may have been around the time of Ed's turn to Christianity that the threads of Live really started to unravel.

P.S. Wow, I had quite the rant a few posts up from that quote in the thread you linked, didn't I? I guess some things never change. Even 5 years later.

didn't he also write something like this on a blog or page called essential naked or something? I don't think it exists anymore but he was a guest on it or something.

[dangum]

didn't he also write something like this on a blog or page called essential naked or something? I don't think it exists anymore but he was a guest on it or something.

I think it was "Integral Naked". I don't remember the blog post though.

[Bremang]

He most certainly had posts for a bit on integral.org

what a hoax, ken wilber and friends.


http://integrallife.com/contributors/ed-kowalczyk

http://integrallife.com/node/79669

[dancing queen]

I think it was "Integral Naked". I don't remember the blog post though.

Thanks Dan. One more reason I'm glad you're around... you know so much! (I was falling asleep and I remembered I used to check it out, but couldn't remember what it was called. I like Essential Naked better, btw)

[FishOutaWater]

Thanks Dan. One more reason I'm glad you're around... you know so much! (I was falling asleep and I remembered I used to check it out, but couldn't remember what it was called. I like Essential Naked better, btw)

That was the blog where Ed posted a photo of himself in a silly Beast costume with his daughter - they were dressed as Beauty and the beast for Halloween. He quickly took that blog post down after he thought better of it. I have a copy of that photo somewhere.