TGF album on vinyl! Options

[mattdm11]

Thanks for completely not recognizing the sarcasm in my statement.

yeah, because sarcasm really comes through in your post on the internet. Good call.

I'm glad TC sounds good to your ears. I wish I could say the same. Some tracks sound OK, I agree....but ones like WD, Stage.....they are compressed and poor sounding.

[live2cd]

anyone who says the loudness wars have not been going on since 1993/1994 are clearly not doing their homework. just go to google and search the topic, come back and feel free to join the discussion. while it might sound good to you, it doesnt mean it sounds its absolute best. one of the worst offenders in my opinion has been "Californication" by the RHCP, I cant even listen to that one. the songs I do like off that record, I have to listen to live versions. of course death magnetic is the one that brought the loudness wars to the forefront, but this has been going on for 16+ years, this is nothing new here.

IMO, TGF record is pretty good. I have no complaints. There is obvious compression but not enough to take away from my enjoyment of the album.

This post has been edited by live2cd: Dec 6 2010, 12:32 pm

[thefunkyredcaboose]

yeah, because sarcasm really comes through in your post on the internet. Good call.

I'm glad TC sounds good to your ears. I wish I could say the same. Some tracks sound OK, I agree....but ones like WD, Stage.....they are compressed and poor sounding.

It is true my post wasn't overly obvious, but in actuality, I do production and mixing professionally. Most folks around here are aware of that so I thought it would be pretty obvious that I was picking on my boy Ed. My bad.

You are right to analyze compression in mastering, but I think coming down hard on one side of the "brick wall" debate is a bit harsh. Some albums sound great when they are hyped and compressed to crap, that is just how they are supposed to sound. As long as they aren't distorted it is all good in the hood. Otherwise, restraint is a very good thing in mixing and mastering.

I do though, think that somehow your copy of TC is different than mine. When did you purchase it?

[OutToDry]

It is true my post wasn't overly obvious, but in actuality, I do production and mixing professionally. Most folks around here are aware of that so I thought it would be pretty obvious that I was picking on my boy Ed. My bad.

You are right to analyze compression in mastering, but I think coming down hard on one side of the "brick wall" debate is a bit harsh. Some albums sound great when they are hyped and compressed to crap, that is just how they are supposed to sound. As long as they aren't distorted it is all good in the hood. Otherwise, restraint is a very good thing in mixing and mastering.

I do though, think that somehow your copy of TC is different than mine. When did you purchase it?

I've had several copies, the newer ones sound worse than the ones released in the 90s. The tapes get copied between cd replicators as the years go by and the pressings are.versioned. see how some of.the classics are reissued and remastered. Live's cd's haven't been to my knowledge.

This post has been edited by OutToDry: Dec 6 2010, 1:01 pm

[mattdm11]

anyone who says the loudness wars have not been going on since 1993/1994 are clearly not doing their homework. just go to google and search the topic, come back and feel free to join the discussion. while it might sound good to you, it doesnt mean it sounds its absolute best. one of the worst offenders in my opinion has been "Californication" by the RHCP, I cant even listen to that one. the songs I do like off that record, I have to listen to live versions. of course death magnetic is the one that brought the loudness wars to the forefront, but this has been going on for 16+ years, this is nothing new here.

IMO, TGF record is pretty good. I have no complaints. There is obvious compression but not enough to take away from my enjoyment of the album.

YES. Thank you. TGF is not bad at all, but it could be better.

I am more just trying to inform people about all of this, but it is going the way it usually does when anyone brings it up....the person bringing it up is crazy, the band wanted it that way, you have a bad CD, etc. etc.

[mattdm11]

I've had several copies, the newer ones sound worse than the ones released in the 90s. The tapes get copied between cd replicators as the years go by and the pressings are.versioned. see how some of.the classics are reissued and remastered. Live's cd's haven't been to my knowledge.

exactly my point. Nothing has been done to them. The easiest way to find out is to rip WD to your computer, download Audacity and import it to look at the waveform. I am 99% certain yours is going to look the same as mine.

[mattdm11]

It is true my post wasn't overly obvious, but in actuality, I do production and mixing professionally. Most folks around here are aware of that so I thought it would be pretty obvious that I was picking on my boy Ed. My bad.

You are right to analyze compression in mastering, but I think coming down hard on one side of the "brick wall" debate is a bit harsh. Some albums sound great when they are hyped and compressed to crap, that is just how they are supposed to sound. As long as they aren't distorted it is all good in the hood. Otherwise, restraint is a very good thing in mixing and mastering.

I do though, think that somehow your copy of TC is different than mine. When did you purchase it?

I agree that some bands like this sound. Foo Fighters is a good example....their debut CD isn't overly compressed, but doesn't sound great, but Dave Grohl wanted it that way. One By One is another example....it is on the "worst mastered" all-time list, but again, I think DG wanted it like that.

Compression has its place in music, but not for every album. Again, when Sarah McLachlan CDs are louder than Siamese Dream or Superunknown, don't you think you have a problem? And SM is't doing it because it's how she wanted it - she is trying to compete with other "loud" records out there now.

I know enough about this to know that it isn't the artists who all of a sudden had a sudden change in how their CDs should sound.

Go read about Chinese Democracy by GnR - Axl actually picked the non-compressed version of his album to be released, and it sounds pretty damn good.

The downside of knowing all this is you become anal about how a record is produced, which I admittedly am. I sort of wish I didn't have this knowledge, because it does detract from a lot of albums I own.

[thefunkyredcaboose]

Please don't insult my intelligence by asking me to read anything about Chinese Democracy.

I think you are taking this mastering thing too personally. Just enjoy the music for what it is! If an album feels right, it feels right. If you don't like the way it sounds, don't listen to it.

Artists today do it because it is the only way their songs can be competitive on radio, film, and television. We are all victims of the loudness wars in that sense. So, true, maybe the artist doesn't want it to sound that way, but if they want their music to be commercially viable then they have to work with it. I think the TGF album achieved a nice balance in the mastering. These days that is about all you can hope for in the world of commercially viable rock albums.

[mattdm11]

Please don't insult my intelligence by asking me to read anything about Chinese Democracy.

I think you are taking this mastering thing too personally. Just enjoy the music for what it is! If an album feels right, it feels right. If you don't like the way it sounds, don't listen to it.

Artists today do it because it is the only way their songs can be competitive on radio, film, and television. We are all victims of the loudness wars in that sense. So, true, maybe the artist doesn't want it to sound that way, but if they want their music to be commercially viable then they have to work with it. I think the TGF album achieved a nice balance in the mastering. These days that is about all you can hope for in the world of commercially viable rock albums.

It is NOT the only way they can be competitive on radio. Do you know at all how radio works? Everything on air is compressed and made the same volume anyway. So sorry, that argument doesn't hold water.

You say I'm taking it too personally.....I'm telling you that you don't take it personally enough. If you truly love music, this would bother you. Why accept an inferior product if you don't have to? Having your "oh well" attitude isn't going to change things.

This post has been edited by mattdm11: Dec 6 2010, 11:34 pm

[Sonic Tonic]

To the audiophiles out there that have heard Lateralus. I think it's a great 2000s album with great dynamics (at least my ears say so)

matt, funky or +ed can you guys give any input on it?? (I guess you would need to hear the album cd atleast so don't worry about responding if you haven't) Though I do recommend this musical masterpiece to anyone (specially drummers)


oh its Lateralus by the band Tool.

[+Ed+]

I do get what you mean, I just don't think you can apply it in such an extreme way.

Well maybe my phrase only concerns forms of art then? It is not extremes, it is simply saying that you may judge better if you tried to do the stuff you are iscussing. I have all reight to discuss bass guitarists, guitarists and drummers. I can not discuss keyboard players.

I always discuss soccer players. I can not judge hockey though

I hope you get me.

Thanks for completely not recognizing the sarcasm in my statement.

I also agree with OTD that my TC album sounds fantastic

Thirded.

It is true my post wasn't overly obvious, but in actuality, I do production and mixing professionally. Most folks around here are aware of that so I thought it would be pretty obvious that I was picking on my boy Ed. My bad.

Completely understood if I have to clarify it for anyone.

I agree that some bands like this sound. Foo Fighters is a good example....their debut CD isn't overly compressed, but doesn't sound great,

To the audiophiles out there that have heard Lateralus. I think it's a great 2000s album with great dynamics (at least my ears say so)

matt, funky or +ed can you guys give any input on it?? (I guess you would need to hear the album cd atleast so don't worry about responding if you haven't) Though I do recommend this musical masterpiece to anyone (specially drummers)
oh its Lateralus by the band Tool.

It's +Ed+or simply Ed.

What do you mean about Lateralus? I have heard it on tape and in mp3. Never had the CD though

[thefunkyredcaboose]

It is NOT the only way they can be competitive on radio. Do you know at all how radio works? Everything on air is compressed and made the same volume anyway. So sorry, that argument doesn't hold water.

You say I'm taking it too personally.....I'm telling you that you don't take it personally enough. If you truly love music, this would bother you. Why accept an inferior product if you don't have to? Having your "oh well" attitude isn't going to change things.

Thanks for the lecture. A little insulting, but that's the internet I guess.

It just so happens that I worked in radio for a number of years and still do freelance radio work from time to time. Yes there is a ton of compression used in radio, but because of the way the compression works IF you don't master the music close to the current industry standard (sigh) then the radio compression will make your song sound worse than the others around it. IMO, it is better to compress it yourself than let that happen. Not to mention that it also doesn't necessarily make your track near the same volume as the others either. It just doesn't work that way.

What exactly are you going to do to change the industry? What does complaining on the internet do? I take it personally enough that most of the projects I work on are not over-compressed in mastering. Hell, I even stay away from compression as much as possible in mixing. It is a big part of what I do, and a bigger part of why my independent projects rarely make a whole lot of money. If I didn't care, as you imply, then why do I take a financial hit because of it? It just wouldn't make sense.

Do you know the difference between abusing compression in mixing and abusing compression in mastering? How the album is mixed has a huge effect on how it is mastered and often the mastering gets blamed for compression being over-used in the mixing process.

Now, all this said, I am not trying to tell you that I know everything in the world about mixing and mastering, because I don't. I am just giving you a perspective from someone who has done mixing, mastering, radio work, etc. and has actually seen how this comes together on the ground floor. I'd think that would be interesting to you whether we ultimately disagree on mastering philosophy. I think you have a right to be critical of masters and I appreciate that you want to be discerning about it, I really do. I am just trying to bring a different perspective, not have an argument.

This post has been edited by thefunkyredcaboose: Dec 7 2010, 7:22 am

[thefunkyredcaboose]

To the audiophiles out there that have heard Lateralus. I think it's a great 2000s album with great dynamics (at least my ears say so)

matt, funky or +ed can you guys give any input on it?? (I guess you would need to hear the album cd atleast so don't worry about responding if you haven't) Though I do recommend this musical masterpiece to anyone (specially drummers)
oh its Lateralus by the band Tool.

Its a great album that is loud and also has dynamics. A win win, IMO.

Given the sound of it, I think they recorded everything dynamically, compressed it in mixing (to make everything close to the same volume), and then automated volumes throughout the album. If you want a loud master that has dynamics, that is the way to do it.

My only complaint with that album (and most of Tool's work) is that the instruments come off a little too processed for my taste. They sound good, but a bit unnatural at points.

Just a rough opinion, honestly, it has been a few years since I had the album but that's how I remember it.

[+Ed+]

My only complaint with that album (and most of Tool's work) is that the instruments come off a little too processed for my taste. They sound good, but a bit unnatural at points.

You've gotta spin their first EP, mate

[thefunkyredcaboose]

You've gotta spin their first EP, mate

Agreed, it is great. I was mainly thinking of their later work.

What's everyone's favorite sounding rock album? Not favorite musically or song-wise, but just the way it sounds? Could make for an interesting discussion!