"Ground Zero Mosque", Idiotic debate Options

[Sakhmet2]

Hey.
How 'bout this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w8nTcjDdzk

This is about Israel and Islamic terrorism.

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

As Pat Buchanan said, the political opportunism of individual politicans like Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin.

Pat Buchanan is a religious extremist himself. Do you really want to be putting a lot of stock in what he says? Did it ever occur to you that his words are simply......ya know......political opportunism?

The opportunism of certain groups of citizens to promote hatred and xenophobia.

As various commentators have noted, the opportunism of the media, including the New York Times. I read a column that noted the NY Times has not wasted any energy clarifying matters or reporting the facts because they've been so busy following the debate. They and other media outlets on all sides of the political spectrum have mostly just been basking in the increased traffic flow to their sites.

Maureen Dowd, as liberal a NY Times columnist as there is, actually was pining for Dubya to weigh in on this. I nearly pissed myself when I read that.

Whores and fries have a lot to do with it. It's all about hypocrisy. If people really think it's a sacred place, shouldn't they be campaigning to get rid of the less savory elements, including those fast food joints I wouldn't want my loved ones buried under, or adjacent to, a Burger King or a strip club. On the other hand, how many people know that building actually considered for construction directly over the site of Ground Zero was a mall. Maybe at some point people should have decided/should decide that all buildings damaged in the 9/11 attacks could not be used for any construction which was not strictly a memorial.

If there are still whores in the area, then Mayor Bloomberg has been slacking in following his predecessor's example. Because say what you want about Rudy Guiliani, but he sure did a hell of a lot to clean up the streets on NYC. As for a burger joint, this is still a capitalist country and Burger King is still considered a slice of Americana. Your point on that is a non-starter.

And there have been quite a few plans bandied about regarding the site. A lot of them received major flak locally. Hell, the debate went on for years as to what would be an appropriate memorial.

This is true. However, as I noted above, the site was partly chosen by some reality show guy. He "steered a developer" towards the site of the old Burlington Coat Factory. So how much input did the guy planning the actual centre have?

Are you seriously suggesting that they're locked into that location and that location only? If not, your last statement lacks a point.

[Sakhmet2]

Pat Buchanan is a religious extremist himself. Do you really want to be putting a lot of stock in what he says? Did it ever occur to you that his words are simply......ya know......political opportunism?

Just because a pot calls a kettle black doesn't mean the kettle's not black.

Maureen Dowd, as liberal a NY Times columnist as there is, actually was pining for Dubya to weigh in on this. I nearly pissed myself when I read that.

Surely no one thinks she said that because she honestly values his opinion? It would have been great column-fodder, in the unlikely event they ran out of stuff to misrepresent.

If there are still whores in the area, then Mayor Bloomberg has been slacking in following his predecessor's example. Because say what you want about Rudy Guiliani, but he sure did a hell of a lot to clean up the streets on NYC. As for a burger joint, this is still a capitalist country and Burger King is still considered a slice of Americana. Your point on that is a non-starter.

The references are to some kind of escort club: legal but not appropriate.
And your point about "a slice of Americana" is a not only a non-starter, it's fuels the other side's arguments.

And there have been quite a few plans bandied about regarding the site. A lot of them received major flak locally. Hell, the debate went on for years as to what would be an appropriate memorial.
Are you seriously suggesting that they're locked into that location and that location only? If not, your last statement lacks a point.

Glad to see they don't go with over-rated no-talent Libeskind. His stuff is never buildable.

Are you seriously suggesting that they're locked into that location and that location only? If not, your last statement lacks a point.

You are twisting my argument so as not to reply to it. I never said they were locked into anything. I said that the site was not chosen specifically by the Muslim group buiding the mosque.

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

Just because a pot calls a kettle black doesn't mean the kettle's not black.

Hey, you're the one calling motives into question here. And I guarantee you Pat Buchanan has his own motives for taking this stand.

Surely no one thinks she said that because she honestly values his opinion? It would have been great column-fodder, in the unlikely event they ran out of stuff to misrepresent.

Oh hell no. Dowd detests all things Dubya. The fact that she could bring herself to even type it is amazing. And just goes to show how screwed up this thing is.

The references are to some kind of escort club: legal but not appropriate.
And your point about "a slice of Americana" is a not only a non-starter, it's fuels the other side's arguments.

And if they were building a new escort club, I'd agree with you.

You are twisting my argument so as not to reply to it. I never said they were locked into anything. I said that the site was not chosen specifically by the Muslim group buiding the mosque.

But they're still planning on building it anyway, even with knowing what they know now.

I'm out for a while. Having lunch with old co-workers. Be back later.

[thefunkyredcaboose]

I maintain that there is no way to oppose this without condemning all of Islam as a result of the actions of few.

Itchy, I don't think anyone is trying to dismiss what happened to families on that day. The point is that there were Muslim families ripped apart as well. Just because the men who led the attacks were Muslims does not mean that they had the support of all Muslims, not at all! The whole religion should not be held accountable by the actions of its extremists.

I agree with those who have said that the idea of building there was somewhat foolish. I could have told them that Americans weren't ready to separate Muslim and terrorist. That said, they are doing it and the constitution allows it. Religious freedom has been shit on enough lately (see: the cross and the Buddhist shrine in the national park supreme court ruling) and it is time for that to stop.

As for the whores, that is a reference to the "Ground Zero Strip Club" which resides just as far from the site as this community center would.

[thefunkyredcaboose]

At the same time, no one goes around calling the YMCA a Christian or Jewish center. They stamped the place with the Islamic label, they can reap the whirlwind of the decision.

Yes, but that doesn't give the media the free right to lead the story by claiming it is a Mosque. That is the problem.

"Community Center two blocks from Ground Zero" just doesn't have the same alarmist ring to it.

[GraciousLivEddieK?]

Westerners, stop being "useful idiots".
WAKE UP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-UDl3j8WZQ

[thefunkyredcaboose]

Westerners, stop being "useful idiots".
WAKE UP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-UDl3j8WZQ

You are just a propaganda machine aren't you? You should try forming your own thoughts on the subject.

[sh4rpz]

I maintain that there is no way to oppose this without condemning all of Islam as a result of the actions of few.

Itchy, I don't think anyone is trying to dismiss what happened to families on that day. The point is that there were Muslim families ripped apart as well. Just because the men who led the attacks were Muslims does not mean that they had the support of all Muslims, not at all! The whole religion should not be held accountable by the actions of its extremists.

I agree with those who have said that the idea of building there was somewhat foolish. I could have told them that Americans weren't ready to separate Muslim and terrorist. That said, they are doing it and the constitution allows it. Religious freedom has been shit on enough lately (see: the cross and the Buddhist shrine in the national park supreme court ruling) and it is time for that to stop.

As for the whores, that is a reference to the "Ground Zero Strip Club" which resides just as far from the site as this community center would.

[Sakhmet2]

Westerners, stop being "useful idiots".
WAKE UP.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-UDl3j8WZQ

Just FYI: youtube is not a reputable news source.

Hey, you're the one calling motives into question here. And I guarantee you Pat Buchanan has his own motives for taking this stand.

Of course he does. That's exactly what the whole pot-kettle analogy means.

Yes, but that doesn't give the media the free right to lead the story by claiming it is a Mosque. That is the problem.

"Community Center two blocks from Ground Zero" just doesn't have the same alarmist ring to it.

This post has been edited by Sakhmet2: Aug 23 2010, 10:12 am

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

I maintain that there is no way to oppose this without condemning all of Islam as a result of the actions of few.

Itchy, I don't think anyone is trying to dismiss what happened to families on that day. The point is that there were Muslim families ripped apart as well. Just because the men who led the attacks were Muslims does not mean that they had the support of all Muslims, not at all! The whole religion should not be held accountable by the actions of its extremists.

And I've already said they have every legal right to do so. I still don't think they should, but I'm not going to deny they have the right to do so. In fact, may of the people opposed to it have also said they have the legal right to do so.

There have also been a number of members in the Muslim community who have come out and said this is a bad idea and questioned the need for it.

I agree with those who have said that the idea of building there was somewhat foolish. I could have told them that Americans weren't ready to separate Muslim and terrorist. That said, they are doing it and the constitution allows it. Religious freedom has been shit on enough lately (see: the cross and the Buddhist shrine in the national park supreme court ruling) and it is time for that to stop.

Frankly, I think things in this country have been a lot better for Muslims in the aftermath on 9/11 than they have been in a number of European countries. I seem to recall a few countries passing increasingly prejudicial immigration laws pointed directly at Muslims. So you'll have to excuse me if I'm not on-board with this "we must stop American hate of Muslims" idea, especially where Europe is concerned.

As for the whores, that is a reference to the "Ground Zero Strip Club" which resides just as far from the site as this community center would.

Which is as distasteful as can possibly be.

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

Yes, but that doesn't give the media the free right to lead the story by claiming it is a Mosque. That is the problem.

"Community Center two blocks from Ground Zero" just doesn't have the same alarmist ring to it.

I would point out that proponents of the project, such as Nancy Pelosi, are calling it a mosque as well.

Also, the building is already in use as a Muslim prayer space. Strangely, there's nothing that would tell one that this is the case if you were to walk past the building.

And for what it's worth, calling it a Muslim Community Center instead of a mosque still would have the same alarmist ring to it.

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

Yes, but that doesn't give the media the free right to lead the story by claiming it is a Mosque. That is the problem.

"Community Center two blocks from Ground Zero" just doesn't have the same alarmist ring to it.

By the way, about there not being a mosque.....

http://www.park51.org/facilities.htm

And I quote:

a mosque, intended to be run separately from Park51 but open to and accessible to all members, visitors and our New York community

[thefunkyredcaboose]

I would point out that proponents of the project, such as Nancy Pelosi, are calling it a mosque as well.

Also, the building is already in use as a Muslim prayer space. Strangely, there's nothing that would tell one that this is the case if you were to walk past the building.

And for what it's worth, calling it a Muslim Community Center instead of a mosque still would have the same alarmist ring to it.

Anyone calling it a mosque is inaccurate, no matter what side of the debate they are on. Putting a chapel in a Hospital doesn't make it a church, just as having a mosque in the community center doesn't make it a mosque.

Either only has an alarmist ring if your perspective is one that is alarmed by Islam in general, which is really the whole point of my argument.

If Americans treat Muslims as great as you claim, what is the big deal with this one building? Things surely aren't as bad as they may be elsewhere, but that is just one big "See? At least we aren't doing THAT" argument that seems to ignore the present situation.

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

Anyone calling it a mosque is inaccurate, no matter what side of the debate they are on. Putting a chapel in a Hospital doesn't make it a church, just as having a mosque in the community center doesn't make it a mosque.

Either only has an alarmist ring if your perspective is one that is alarmed by Islam in general, which is really the whole point of my argument.

If Americans treat Muslims as great as you claim, what is the big deal with this one building? Things surely aren't as bad as they may be elsewhere, but that is just one big "See? At least we aren't doing THAT" argument that seems to ignore the present situation.

Did you miss the link to the actual Park51 site where it specifically states that there will be a mosque? They're not calling it a chapel, not calling it a prayer room, they're calling it a mosque. So apparently, they were all getting it right and it's people who are claiming that there isn't going to be a mosque who are obfuscating the truth.

And again, even opponents of the project are claiming they have a legal right to build it. But why do it? You yourself said it probably wasn't a smart thing to do. The community doesn't want it there. But in the name of peace and understanding, they're going to build it anyway?

Sorry, when you know in advance that your plans are going to have the direct opposite effect of the stated purpose of said plans, I call bullshit on the reasoning for the place.