"Ground Zero Mosque", Idiotic debate Options

[Wambangalang]

i think religion should be dismissed entirely. I think it turns many people away from the idea of a higher power through its perversions of truth and bronz-age assertions. If there is a higher power it doesnt care if you eat a pig or whack the salami in your spare time, nor does it require you to feel guilty about private instinctive thoughts. Thats why i liked the song heaven on a lyrical level. i took that song as meaning that ed doesnt need any specific religion telling him there is a god, because all the proof he needs is right before his eyes. If there is a god it is something that everyone should be able to understand through perception of the natural world, not only available to those who have had the advantage of the word being spread to them or being born in a certain part of the world.

yet now he digs jesus

This post has been edited by Wambangalang: Aug 22 2010, 11:31 pm

[Badman]

Hitchens point is that one line of text in one book can be used as justification to kill, enslave, oppress and torture millions.
He points out that after every Easter sermon for millennia, there have been prgroms against thousands of Jews on the basis of one line in one part of the bible that isn't supported by another line of text.
One line in the Hindu scripture, which probably was misinterpreted according to one of my profs, led to millions of women being burned alive in India.
Another line, this time in the Bible, led to the torture and death of thousands of women and probably hundreds of men as witches.
Yet another line seems to justify hatred of homosexuals.

If we can learn anything from this, it is that even without christianity Ed would still be writing crappy "music".

In all seriousness though, Politifact, one of the best, balanced, and fun news sites ran a story on the mosque. The site does it's best to call out both sides and hold obama accountable. IT pretty much sums it up.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/ar...-mosque-debate/

[Sakhmet2]

If there is a higher power it doesnt care if you eat a pig or whack the salami in your spare time

As long as that salami is kosher/halal

Thats why i liked the song heaven on a lyrical level. i took that song as meaning that ed doesnt need any specific religion telling him there is a god, because all the proof he needs is right before his eyes. If there is a god it is something that everyone should be able to understand through perception of the natural world, not only available to those who have had the advantage of the word being spread to them or being born in a certain part of the world.
yet now he digs jesus

Totally and completely agree.

[sh4rpz]

I read about this a few months back. Can I just ask quickly if the Mosque being built at ground zero, or not? What is the factual info about the site and where it is etc?

Edit: Just read that it is 2 blocks away from Ground Zero. Anyone can confirm this? http://abcnews.go.com/WN/president-obama-s...ory?id=11401964

This post has been edited by sh4rpz: Aug 23 2010, 6:51 am

[Sakhmet2]

I read about this a few months back. Can I just ask quickly if the Mosque being built at ground zero, or not? What is the factual info about the site and where it is etc?

A quick question, with a long answer.

1. as said above, it's not a "mosque". It is a [http://wallwritings.wordpress.com/2010/08/18/right-wing-blogger-provoked-attack-on-islamic-center/]Muslim community centre with a prayer room[/url], or "Islamic Center". It will also have a basketball court, culinary school, swimming pool etc.
Officially this is known the Park51 project.
2. it's not at Ground Zero. It is several blocks away. The site was apparently picked from a map of Manhattan by a guy who won a reality show:
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/0...mosque_site.htm
As noted, there are fast food chains in the neighbourhood, also some kind of "gentleman's club" is within the same walking distance of Ground Zero. (One assumes from this that some booty to go with that shake shake shake is okay in this sacred precinct).

It is also a red herring to refer to "liberals" as being the ones discussing religious freedom:

Some liberals try to make this a religious freedom issue, not so subtly implying the opponent are bigots. It's dishonest and meant to stifle debate.

Some conservatives are in favour of it on the grounds of religious freedom, notably Grover Norquist:
http://dailyradar.com/beltwayblips/story/n...-will-hurt-gop/
Pat Buchanan critcized fellow conservative politician New Gingrinch for "political opportunism" for his stand: http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/08/17/vi...al-opportunist/

But this is probaby the best and most fun summary to read:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20...und-zero-mosque

Cordoba House, as it's known, is a proposed Islamic cultural centre, which, in addition to a prayer room, will include a basketball court, restaurant, and swimming pool. Its aim is to improve inter-faith relations. It'll probably also have comfy chairs and people who smile at you when you walk in, the monsters.
To get to the Cordoba Centre from Ground Zero, you'd have to walk in the opposite direction for two blocks, before turning a corner and walking a bit more. The journey should take roughly two minutes, or possibly slightly longer if you're heading an angry mob who can't hear your directions over the sound of their own enraged bellowing.
Perhaps spatial reality functions differently on the other side of the Atlantic, but here in London, something that is "two minutes' walk and round a corner" from something else isn't actually "in" the same place at all. I once had a poo in a pub about two minutes' walk from Buckingham Palace. I was not subsequently arrested and charged with crapping directly onto the Queen's pillow. That's how "distance" works in Britain. It's also how distance works in America, of course, but some people are currently pretending it doesn't, for daft political ends.
New York being a densely populated city, there are lots of other buildings and businesses within two blocks of Ground Zero, including a McDonald's and a Burger King, neither of which has yet been accused of serving milkshakes and fries on hallowed ground. Regardless, for the opponents of Cordoba House, two blocks is too close, period. Frustratingly, they haven't produced a map pinpointing precisely how close is OK.

This post has been edited by Sakhmet2: Aug 23 2010, 7:31 am

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

I read about this a few months back. Can I just ask quickly if the Mosque being built at ground zero, or not? What is the factual info about the site and where it is etc?

Edit: Just read that it is 2 blocks away from Ground Zero. Anyone can confirm this? http://abcnews.go.com/WN/president-obama-s...ory?id=11401964

That's about right. Though in terms of city blocks, two of them are nothing, especially when you consider how much square footage each of the Twin Towers took up. Also, the building in question was damaged in the 9/11 attacks as well. So to many, yes, it is considered part of Ground Zero.

Here's my view on this whole thing. Do they have a legal right to build the thing? Yes, they do. But if there were a single shred of truth to their claims of wanting to build bridges with the non-Muslim community, they would have listened to the outcry and moved the location. All they are doing now is ripping open a wound that is not close to healed and pouring salt and vinegar on it.

Maybe people would feel differently if the city wasn't so damn far behind on rebuilding the area, including having the memorials built. But as it stands right now, there's going to be a 15 story mosque (along with other amenities) that will overlook the giant hole where the towers once stood.

I worked just across the river from the towers, a scant 5 miles as the crow flies. I watched them burn and could smell the smoke for some time afterward when the winds were right. So yeah, people who casually dismiss this piss me the fuck off.

I still remember the helpless feeling of trying to contact everyone I knew who could possibly be in the area, dealing with overloaded cell phone systems, scouring news reports. Trying to find some way to help. Not even being able to give blood because they just couldn't accommodate any more donors.

So, I ask that you tread carefully here folks.

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

1. as said above, it's not a "mosque". It is a [http://wallwritings.wordpress.com/2010/08/18/right-wing-blogger-provoked-attack-on-islamic-center/]Muslim community centre with a prayer room[/url], or "Islamic Center". It will also have a basketball court, culinary school, swimming pool etc.
Officially this is known the Park51 project.
2. it's not at Ground Zero. It is several blocks away. The site was apparently picked from a map of Manhattan by a guy who won a reality show:
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/0...mosque_site.htm

It is also a red herring to refer to "liberals" as being the ones discussing religious freedom:

Some conservatives are in favour of it on the grounds of religious freedom, notably Grover Norquist:
http://dailyradar.com/beltwayblips/story/n...-will-hurt-gop/
Pat Buchanan critcized fellow conservative politician New Gingrinch for "political opportunism" for his stand: http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/08/17/vi...al-opportunist/

But this is probaby the best and most fun summary to read:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/20...und-zero-mosque

Last I checked, there is also a mosque at the location. Just because there's a lot of other stuff, doesn't disqualify it from being a mosque.

[sh4rpz]

Thanks for the info Sakhmet2.

I come from an Islamic background, and I can tell you that my 1st thoughts when I read about the proposed building and the site, was that it would just bring about a series of problems based on misinterpretation and misunderstanding.

I could understand what those involved in the development were trying to achieve, but I was still wary of the sensitivity which surrounded the context and the nature of the building (this was before you cleared up the fact that it is indeed not a mosque at all).

I have been made aware by friends, both Muslim and non-Muslim who live in NYC, that there are mosques already in the proximity of downtown Manhatten, so I questioned the need for a new one, let alone one at Ground Zero.

But now that you guys have cleared my understanding with some facts regarding this issue, I look on it differently. I did already agree with a lot of what has been said especially by funkyredcaboose, who has it nailed on the head.

I think it is important to educate and derive some kind of understanding amongst people who still see Islam as part of a terrorist regime. I think it is important to remember that all Muslims aren't terrorists. The article I posted above has some key quotes:

"I'm very much in favor of religious tolerance. I don't believe that the 19 people who flew those planes, and the people who supported them represent Islam," - http://abcnews.go.com/WN/president-obama-s...11401964&page=2

and

"Our enemies respect no freedom of religion. Al Qaeda's cause is not Islam -- it is a gross distortion of Islam," he said. "These are not religious leaders -- these are terrorists who murder innocent men, women and children. In fact, al Qaeda has killed more Muslims than people of any other religion -- and that list of victims includes innocent Muslims who were killed on 9/11."

[Sakhmet2]

That's about right. Though in terms of city blocks, two of them are nothing, especially when you consider how much square footage each of the Twin Towers took up. Also, the building in question was damaged in the 9/11 attacks as well. So to many, yes, it is considered part of Ground Zero.
Here's my view on this whole thing. Do they have a legal right to build the thing? Yes, they do. But if there were a single shred of truth to their claims of wanting to build bridges with the non-Muslim community, they would have listened to the outcry and moved the location. All they are doing now is ripping open a wound that is not close to healed and pouring salt and vinegar on it.
Maybe people would feel differently if the city wasn't so damn far behind on rebuilding the area, including having the memorials built. But as it stands right now, there's going to be a 15 story mosque (along with other amenities) that will overlook the giant hole where the towers once stood.
I worked just across the river from the towers, a scant 5 miles as the crow flies. I watched them burn and could smell the smoke for some time afterward when the winds were right. So yeah, people who casually dismiss this piss me the fuck off.
I still remember the helpless feeling of trying to contact everyone I knew who could possibly be in the area, dealing with overloaded cell phone systems, scouring news reports. Trying to find some way to help. Not even being able to give blood because they just couldn't accommodate any more donors.
So, I ask that you tread carefully here folks.

I am not casually dismissing this at all. I think the distortion of reality and hypocrisy for political purposes - whores and fries are okay within 2 blocks of the site, but no community centres please - is a real issue. Muslims died in that attack. So did Christians, Jews, and probably representatives of all the major religions.

I remember that day really well too. My best friend lived in lower Manhattan when the attacks went down. I couldn't get in touch with him for a week . His family were frantic. We tried to drive to the city to look for him, but couldn't get through. He was sick for a long time because of asthma brought on by the ashes.

Thanks for the info Sakhmet2.
I come from an Islamic background, and I can tell you that my 1st thoughts when I read about the proposed building and the site, was that it would just bring about a series of problems based on misinterpretation and misunderstanding.

You would find a supporter is this columnist: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/technology/Mi...0303/story.html

I totally agree with you that the need for another mosque in the area - or church or synagogue, for that matter - is very questionable. NYC is full of places of worship. However, this centre was supposedly multi-cultural.

This post has been edited by Sakhmet2: Aug 23 2010, 7:47 am

[sh4rpz]

That's about right. Though in terms of city blocks, two of them are nothing, especially when you consider how much square footage each of the Twin Towers took up. Also, the building in question was damaged in the 9/11 attacks as well. So to many, yes, it is considered part of Ground Zero.

Here's my view on this whole thing. Do they have a legal right to build the thing? Yes, they do. But if there were a single shred of truth to their claims of wanting to build bridges with the non-Muslim community, they would have listened to the outcry and moved the location. All they are doing now is ripping open a wound that is not close to healed and pouring salt and vinegar on it.

I agree with you on this. I too still feel the same way.

I understand what the Muslim community is trying to do, I just think that in doing so, no matter how sincere their efforts might be, it does not distance itself away from the fact that many people will not see the idea as a tasteful way of trying to 'mend bridges'.

I'm torn here, as I think there is much good the Muslim community can bring in a positive way - but there are also many negatives. I secretly hope that the plans are scrapped, and an alternate site be found. The proximity to Ground Zero of such a building is hardly appropriate.

Edit: I think there is much good the Muslim community can bring in a positive way - but there are also many negatives.

By this, I don't mean that they will bring negative things! I meant that building this 'centre' or place of worship on such a site, comes with its own negatives. Just clearing that up! heh!

This post has been edited by sh4rpz: Aug 23 2010, 7:51 am

[Sakhmet2]

Last I checked, there is also a mosque at the location. Just because there's a lot of other stuff, doesn't disqualify it from being a mosque.

It kind of does. Just like a prayer room in a YMCA/YMHA does not make the building a church or synagogue.

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

I am not casually dismissing this at all. I think the distortion of reality and hypocrisy for political purposes - whores and fries are okay within 2 blocks of the site, but no community centres please - is a real issue. Muslims died in that attack. So did Christians, Jews, and probably representatives of all the major religions.

I remember that day really well too. My best friend lived in lower Manhattan when the attacks went down. I couldn't get in touch with him for a week . His family were frantic. We tried to drive to the city to look for him, but couldn't get through. He was sick for a long time because of asthma brought on by the ashes.

Whose political purposes? It sure as heck isn't one side over the other. Not when you've got Harry Reid, Democratic Senate Majority Leader, breaking ranks with the President over the issue.

The Republican party sure as heck isn't in lockstep on this either. Many agree that they have the legal right to build the thing. That still doesn't make it a smart move.

And what the fuck does whores and fries have to do with this? Fuck the Guardian and their cutesy fucking article.

The issue is the words they use for their intent stand in direct contradiction to the effect the place is having before it is even built.

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

It kind of does. Just like a prayer room in a YMCA/YMHA does not make the building a church or synagogue.

At the same time, no one goes around calling the YMCA a Christian or Jewish center. They stamped the place with the Islamic label, they can reap the whirlwind of the decision.

[Sakhmet2]

Whose political purposes? It sure as heck isn't one side over the other. Not when you've got Harry Reid, Democratic Senate Majority Leader, breaking ranks with the President over the issue.

The Republican party sure as heck isn't in lockstep on this either. Many agree that they have the legal right to build the thing. That still doesn't make it a smart move.

As Pat Buchanan said, the political opportunism of individual politicans like Newt Gingrich and Sarah Palin.

The opportunism of certain groups of citizens to promote hatred and xenophobia.

As various commentators have noted, the opportunism of the media, including the New York Times. I read a column that noted the NY Times has not wasted any energy clarifying matters or reporting the facts because they've been so busy following the debate. They and other media outlets on all sides of the political spectrum have mostly just been basking in the increased traffic flow to their sites.

And what the fuck does whores and fries have to do with this? Fuck the Guardian and their cutesy fucking article

Whores and fries have a lot to do with it. It's all about hypocrisy. If people really think it's a sacred place, shouldn't they be campaigning to get rid of the less savory elements, including those fast food joints I wouldn't want my loved ones buried under, or adjacent to, a Burger King or a strip club. On the other hand, how many people know that building actually considered for construction directly over the site of Ground Zero was a mall. Maybe at some point people should have decided/should decide that all buildings damaged in the 9/11 attacks could not be used for any construction which was not strictly a memorial.

The issue is the words they use for their intent stand in direct contradiction to the effect the place is having before it is even built.

This is true. However, as I noted above, the site was partly chosen by some reality show guy. He "steered a developer" towards the site of the old Burlington Coat Factory. So how much input did the guy planning the actual centre have?

This post has been edited by Sakhmet2: Aug 23 2010, 8:05 am

[GraciousLivEddieK?]

Hey.
How 'bout this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7w8nTcjDdzk