"Ground Zero Mosque", Idiotic debate Options

[thefunkyredcaboose]

Anyone else think this whole debate is as asinine as I do? It isn't at Ground Zero and it isn't a Mosque.

Americans...

[Wambangalang]

yeh this particular issue is pretty silly.

However i think americans (and the rest of the world) need to generate some opposition to what is essentially a culture of religious bullying that has become dangerously hypocritrical. Anyway as always, Hitch says it best:

check it out

[+Ed+]

Whats up with it? NEver heard anything

[imheyjude]

The fact that we're still discussing whether or not the President is Muslim is fucking shameful.

This post has been edited by imheyjude: Aug 21 2010, 9:33 am

[VoodooLady]

it is both asinine and fucking shameful..

American Idiots.. heading to italy in a week and cant wait to hear my family's take on all of this.. last time i was there was summer 08 - we talked alot about the election..

[Hoodstock]

I've got no problem with it. Terrorists blew up the World Trade Center, not true Muslims.

[Nobody Knows]

Hoodie is right. Is this Dutch politician still going there to protest? He is retarded... Geert Wilders is his name.

[GraciousLivEddieK?]

There are definitely far too many bigots who are indeed anti-Muslim, but polls reflect how most Americans support the LEGAL right for them to build, yet don't want it built anyway. The reason being this is not a first amendment issue, but rather one of common sense and sensitivity.
Some liberals try to make this a religious freedom issue, not so subtly implying the opponent are bigots. It's dishonest and meant to stifle debate.
Would you say those families of 9/11 victims are hateful bigots too?

This is pretty ok:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reX7vGb-ToA

[Sakhmet2]

The reason being this is not a first amendment issue, but rather one of common sense and sensitivity.

Would you say those families of 9/11 victims are hateful bigots too?

Shouldn't the argument revolve around the inescapable fact that it's NOT a mosque and NOT at Ground Zero?

[Badman]

However i think americans (and the rest of the world) need to generate some opposition to what is essentially a culture of religious bullying that has become dangerously hypocritrical.

Wait, Christianity or Islam?

[Sakhmet2]

Wait, Christianity or Islam?

Knowing Hitchens, he means both - and Judaism too.

ETA
Okay, I cheated and watched the video all the way through, so I know that's what he means. He says that lots of the nasty shit that has gone down in the past few millennia can be traced to 1 book and its 3 editions.

The video was made in 2006, so he is not at all addressing the current issue. Still valid though.

And you can add most of the other religions as well. Anyone check out Hinduism lately.

This post has been edited by Sakhmet2: Aug 22 2010, 8:19 pm

[thefunkyredcaboose]

There are definitely far too many bigots who are indeed anti-Muslim, but polls reflect how most Americans support the LEGAL right for them to build, yet don't want it built anyway. The reason being this is not a first amendment issue, but rather one of common sense and sensitivity.
Some liberals try to make this a religious freedom issue, not so subtly implying the opponent are bigots. It's dishonest and meant to stifle debate.
Would you say those families of 9/11 victims are hateful bigots too?

This is pretty ok:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reX7vGb-ToA

What about the families of the Muslims who were killed in the 9/11 attacks?

"Common sense" and "sensitivity" are not arguments, they are relative statements.

And what Sakhmet2 said. You won't even be able to see the damn building from Ground Zero anyway so why all the fuss? So that said, tell me why they shouldn't build a community center there, I'd love to know. I haven't heard an argument yet that doesn't imply that Islam is to blame and not the men at the center of the attacks.

BTW, if youtube is your key source of knowledge about Islam you are really missing the boat. Do you know any people who hold Muslim beliefs? Many people seem to miss that there is more than one version of Islam (just like with any religion) and label them all as radical fundamentalists. Its a common misconception of nearly all religions.

This post has been edited by thefunkyredcaboose: Aug 22 2010, 8:40 pm

[thefunkyredcaboose]

Knowing Hitchens, he means both - and Judaism too.

ETA
Okay, I cheated and watched the video all the way through, so I know that's what he means. He says that lots of the nasty shit that has gone down in the past few millennia can be traced to 1 book and its 3 editions.

The video was made in 2006, so he is not at all addressing the current issue. Still valid though.

And you can add most of the other religions as well. Anyone check out Hinduism lately.

I'm not so sure that religion is as much to blame as people. I have known some great people with some pretty outrageous (to me) religious beliefs. If they helped them to be gracious and kind then more power to it, I say.

[Sakhmet2]

I'm not so sure that religion is as much to blame as people. I have known some great people with some pretty outrageous (to me) religious beliefs. If they helped them to be gracious and kind then more power to it, I say.

It depends on what you mean by outrageous.
My last roommate was Wiccan. I guess most people would call that outrageous, but to me the problem isn't with the fact that you believe, but *what* you believe and what actions you chose to take on the basis of that belief.

Hitchens point is that one line of text in one book can be used as justification to kill, enslave, oppress and torture millions.
He points out that after every Easter sermon for millennia, there have been prgroms against thousands of Jews on the basis of one line in one part of the bible that isn't supported by another line of text.
One line in the Hindu scripture, which probably was misinterpreted according to one of my profs, led to millions of women being burned alive in India.
Another line, this time in the Bible, led to the torture and death of thousands of women and probably hundreds of men as witches.
Yet another line seems to justify hatred of homosexuals.
People who wanted to justify slavery of people abducted from Africa found some scriptural justification.
Even genocide can be justified by reference to scripture. I recall my prof telling me how she was horrified and angered to read in a mid-20th century history book that the white settlers in America were justified in basically trying to exterminate the the native peoples because that's what god's chosen people did when they got to Israel. I can't speak to whether that's been used in Australia for some of the inexcusable shit that's gone down with the aboriginals, but you've only got to look at the Middle East or the Balkans to see how this excuse is always convenient.

This post has been edited by Sakhmet2: Aug 22 2010, 9:06 pm

[thefunkyredcaboose]

It depends on what you mean by outrageous.
My last roommate was Wiccan. I guess most people would call that outrageous, but to me the problem isn't with the fact that you believe, but *what* you believe and what actions you chose to take on the basis of that belief.

Hitchens point is that one line of text in one book can be used as justification to kill, enslave, oppress and torture millions.
He points out that after every Easter sermon for millennia, there have been prgroms against thousands of Jews on the basis of one line in one part of the bible that isn't supported by another line of text.
One line in the Hindu scripture, which probably was misinterpreted according to one of my profs, led to millions of women being burned alive in India.
Another line, this time in the Bible, led to the torture and death of thousands of women and probably hundreds of men as witches.
Yet another line seems to justify hatred of homosexuals.
People who wanted to justify slavery of people abducted from Africa found some scriptural justification.
Even genocide can be justified by reference to scripture. I recall my prof telling me how she was horrified and angered to read in a mid-20th century history book that the white settlers in America were justified in basically trying to exterminate the the native peoples because that's what god's chosen people did when they got to Israel. I can't speak to whether that's been used in Australia for some of the inexcusable shit that's gone down with the aboriginals, but you've only got to look at the Middle East or the Balkans to see how this excuse is always convenient.

I agree with that completely and entirely, I just don't agree with those who dismiss religion entirely because of that.

As far as "outrageous," I really just meant even the most basic Christian belief of God becoming man and dying for sins. I think that is pretty wild, but to each his/her own!