Ed Takes A Beat Down, Alive - "It's Depressing" Options

[mattyeagles]

We criticize, not because we don't understand, but because we expect better. What part of that don't you understand?

i understand every part of that

[jclive]

The second he, or any other artist for that matter, starts asking for my money to purchase their music, they can be damn certain that I'm going to have expectations as to the quality of the lyrics and music.

If he's perfectly happy making absolutely no money at all from writing music, then your point is 100 percent completely valid. Otherwise, his musical work is a perfectly legitimate target for criticism.

And yes, he is also being judged on what he has done before. If this had been his first effort, I'd have written him off as some middle of the road talent, nothing to get too excited over in either direction. But the thing is we know better.

I didn't say that his music isn't a target for critizism. Any 'art' is open / subject to criticism. There is more crap music out there than there is good music, at least in my opinion. The stuff my girlfriend's kids (8 & 12) listen to is testament to that!

And I think the point of view that an artist 'asks' you for money is a little twisted. They make the 'art.' We chose to buy it or not. And we chose to like it or not. No one outside of government has ever made me spend money on something I didnt intend or chose to spend it on.

Ed makes money. And will continue to make money. He is a talented artist, regardless of your personal expectations.

And you know what, contrary to our opinions here on the Live fan boards, LIVE was written off as middle of the road talent a long time ago, I'd say somewhere around the tail end of SS success. Didnt/doesnt matter to me though. I enjoy their sound.

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

I didn't say that his music isn't a target for critizism. Any 'art' is open / subject to criticism. There is more crap music out there than there is good music, at least in my opinion. The stuff my girlfriend's kids (8 & 12) listen to is testament to that!

And I think the point of view that an artist 'asks' you for money is a little twisted. They make the 'art.' We chose to buy it or not. And we chose to like it or not. No one outside of government has ever made me spend money on something I didnt intend or chose to spend it on.

Ed makes money. And will continue to make money. He is a talented artist, regardless of your personal expectations.

And you know what, contrary to our opinions here on the Live fan boards, LIVE was written off as middle of the road talent a long time ago, I'd say somewhere around the tail end of SS success. Didnt/doesnt matter to me though. I enjoy their sound.

I don't think the point of view that an artist 'asks' for money is twisted at all. Though you're right to put the quotes around the word ask. Asking gives the connotation of payment being optional. This isn't a voluntary donation jar being put out. The artist has put a price on the work. At that point, it's not only a piece of art (arguably), it's a commodity. And with any commodity, it's going to be judged on quality, both versus the stated price as well as with previous works.

And you seem to construe that my personal expectations call into question whether Ed is a talented artist. In this, you completely miss the point. I have these expectations because I *know* Ed is a talented artist. I think this is a poor work because I know Ed has more talent than he has shown here.

[jclive]

I don't think the point of view that an artist 'asks' for money is twisted at all. Though you're right to put the quotes around the word ask. Asking gives the connotation of payment being optional. This isn't a voluntary donation jar being put out. The artist has put a price on the work. At that point, it's not only a piece of art (arguably), it's a commodity. And with any commodity, it's going to be judged on quality, both versus the stated price as well as with previous works.

And you seem to construe that my personal expectations call into question whether Ed is a talented artist. In this, you completely miss the point. I have these expectations because I *know* Ed is a talented artist. I think this is a poor work because I know Ed has more talent than he has shown here.

In a sense you are right. An artist does, indirectly, 'ask' for money for their work. Where you go off track is in the response. You are not required to buy what the artist is selling. That's a voluntary decision.

Talent is subjective. I see a man who has matured from the child that he once was. But mainly I see an artist who continues to entertain.

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

In a sense you are right. An artist does, indirectly, 'ask' for money for their work. Where you go off track is in the response. You are not required to buy what the artist is selling. That's a voluntary decision.

Talent is subjective. I see a man who has matured from the child that he once was. But mainly I see an artist who continues to entertain.

Of course it's a voluntary decision. That's not a matter of debate. However, the artist in question is using targeted marketing aimed at those who bought his previous goods. That means he's actively seeking my dollars. That marketing began long before the music was available. You're the one who is acting as if he created the art in silence and then said, "Here it is. Buy it or don't" with advertising to follow.

Talent is talent. It's only perception of it that's subjective. You see a boy who has matured into a man. I see a man who lost either the willingness or the ability to tap into the full reservoir of talent that he has. His ability to express his talent has gone backwards. It's possible that it is the nature of his talent compared to where he is in his life that keeps him from being able to do so.

If one's talent is tapping into the search for something more and bringing it forth into powerful music and verse, it's going to be mighty hard to continue to do so when one has found what he seeks.

[jclive]

Of course it's a voluntary decision. That's not a matter of debate. However, the artist in question is using targeted marketing aimed at those who bought his previous goods. That means he's actively seeking my dollars. That marketing began long before the music was available. You're the one who is acting as if he created the art in silence and then said, "Here it is. Buy it or don't" with advertising to follow.

Talent is talent. It's only perception of it that's subjective. You see a boy who has matured into a man. I see a man who lost either the willingness or the ability to tap into the full reservoir of talent that he has. His ability to express his talent has gone backwards. It's possible that it is the nature of his talent compared to where he is in his life that keeps him from being able to do so.

If one's talent is tapping into the search for something more and bringing it forth into powerful music and verse, it's going to be mighty hard to continue to do so when one has found what he seeks.

You say that as if targeted marketing somehow forces one to buy the product. Targeted marketing does work. But the purchasing that is made because of it is still voluntary. Listen to what's out there. Read the reviews. Ask your friends and family. Do whaterver you have to do, but in the end, you either buy something that someone is selling, or you dont.

To some, Alive could be seen as a pinnacle for Ed expressing his ultimate talent. He's spreading the message of his faith. What's greater than that?

If Ed has truly found what he seeks, then I couldnt be happier for him. I hope that is the case.

Regardless, I still enjoy his music.

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

You say that as if targeted marketing somehow forces one to buy the product.

There's nothing further to discuss if you're going to continue to ascribe meaning to my words that I have expressly denied as being the intent.

[jclive]

There's nothing further to discuss if you're going to continue to ascribe meaning to my words that I have expressly denied as being the intent.

So then what's the problem with targeted marketing?

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

So then what's the problem with targeted marketing?

There's nothing wrong with targeted marketing. It is a smart, cost-effective method for trying to obtain a base of sales for a commercial product.

Where it comes in conflict with what you're saying is in the matter of the artist's intent. Ed began marketing the album long before we could hear anything from it beyond Grace. That required a leap of faith on our parts, especially for those who pre-ordered, in which he hoped to cash in on our trust in his talent.

You act as if Ed doesn't care if we buy the album. Ed cares very much if we buy the album. If he didn't, there'd be no need for targeted marketing, or marketing of any kind for that matter, beyond the acknowledgment that a new album.

[jclive]

There's nothing wrong with targeted marketing. It is a smart, cost-effective method for trying to obtain a base of sales for a commercial product.

Where it comes in conflict with what you're saying is in the matter of the artist's intent. Ed began marketing the album long before we could hear anything from it beyond Grace. That required a leap of faith on our parts, especially for those who pre-ordered, in which he hoped to cash in on our trust in his talent.

You act as if Ed doesn't care if we buy the album. Ed cares very much if we buy the album. If he didn't, there'd be no need for targeted marketing, or marketing of any kind for that matter, beyond the acknowledgment that a new album.

I guess I just see it in a different light. I happen to like Alive (obviously). To me, its a whole lot better than SFBM. Better than the majority of BOP as well. Its what I was expecting and had hoped for. Soul Whispers is an added bonus - that track is very moving.

Sometimes those leaps of faith dont go our way. It's happened to me before, and I'm certain that it will again.

And I wasnt saying that I didnt think he cared if we bought it. Just that he doesnt have a choice in the decision that we ultimately make.

[Wambangalang]

However, there are many parts of the album that would be distinctly non-Christian, though the lyric you quoted really isn't. Many Christians today wouldn't reject the big bang, and well Adam and Eve did fuck up.

i remember an interview where ed said something along the lines of "i remember hearing at a very young age about the big bang and thinking bullshit! how can something come from nothing?" He went on to say how the christian/catholic perspective didnt do it for him either (obviously he has changed his mind now).

So when he writes a lyric like the one i quoted before, to me its a rejection of the scientific interpretation of the world and also the religious one, as in the story of adam and eve didnt cut it for him. i didnt interpret it as he thinks adam and eve fucked up, thereby somehow acknowledging the validity of the story...

[ItchyTriggerFinger]

I guess I just see it in a different light. I happen to like Alive (obviously). To me, its a whole lot better than SFBM. Better than the majority of BOP as well. Its what I was expecting and had hoped for. Soul Whispers is an added bonus - that track is very moving.

Sometimes those leaps of faith dont go our way. It's happened to me before, and I'm certain that it will again.

And I wasnt saying that I didnt think he cared if we bought it. Just that he doesnt have a choice in the decision that we ultimately make.

I'd go in the opposite direction. I much prefer SFBM to Alive. And I'd take BoP before them both without ever looking back. I had hopes for the album when I first heard Grace. But too much of the album made me not even want to give it a second listen. I was sorely disappointed in Drink (Everlasting Love). I'm a pretty big Daughtry fan. I thoroughly enjoy both of his albums. I figured that would be one of the songs I'd like the most. But, upon listening to it, I wrote the following:

"Drink (Everlasting Love) - I just don't know what to make of this one. It starts off nice enough, but it just doesn't lyrically flow. I just kept getting the feeling that he was in need of a Thesaurus to find the next word."

Looking back, there were only two songs I put in the flat out "Like" category, Grace and Zion. Drink should have been a slam dunk third based on what I had thought of the two artists up to that point. I found too many of the songs to be lyrically lazy, filled with overdone ooooohs and ahhhhhs. And I still think The Great Beyond should be sent to the great beyond.

[Hoodstock]

I've been saying Ed's lyrics sucked for years. I got tired of songs about the same things over and over again. Shit, how many songs can really be about water?

I typically pay more attention to the sound of a song rather than the lyrics. That's probably why I find enjoyment in the album.

This post has been edited by Hoodstock: Aug 10 2010, 9:06 pm

[+Ed+]

Did not know where to post this, but last night I had a dream that Ed hopped over to Russia and I saw him at our local market. I was busy doing some groceries when I heard some fuss and saw the baldie approaching the place where I was shaking hands of the puzzled sellers from Ukraine and Kirgizia, giving praise to their tomatoes and cucumbers that were so cheap and good looking. The dream was so fucking real, that I could not help admiring the way he paid attention to all the vegetables he saw. I decided to stick to him for the time being and talked to him a lot. I remember nervously figuring what to ask him and decided to stay away from the break-up issues, not to make him feel uncomfortable at our market where he could have decided to do some shopping.

All I remember is that I took a couple of pics with him and asked several questions and when I finally decided to tell him to return to Live and beg for forgiveness, I came up to him, gave him a hug and said: you have no idea how you influenced my life ffs, you, fucker, and I would love to tell you.... when he suddenly became disinterrested, hit the bar and asked fro a glass of pure water. I sat in front of him and suddenly remembered what Merica was tweeting him yesterday and asked: Ed! What is your fave Live bside?

And he answered: Whatever.

I was soooo glad that he said Whatever, because in my dream I was so sure that he meant Susquehanna. Only when I woke up I figured that he was talking of an Oasis single back from 1994.

[+Ed+]

No, I did not hit any drugs yesterday