Ed Kowalczyk Rejuvenated By Solo Career (article) Options

[OutToDry]

Yes that was a big mistruth.

Hey, see you proved my point Nick...........Ed's lyrics on Believe are so atrocious that making any new Live material which is like Old Live is a ship that has sailed.

[thefunkyredcaboose]

I think the sales of the last 3 albums speak to my opinion very loudly.

So then, is every band who has declining album sales cheating their fans? I don't think there is a correlation there, and besides bringing up album sales is really more of a Nick like argument.

[Aitkens]

So then, is every band who has declining album sales cheating their fans? I don't think there is a correlation there, and besides bringing up album sales is really more of a Nick like argument.

I was cheated out of my money when I bought V and BOP. Thankfully, I learned my lesson and did not allow myself to be cheated out of money with SFBM.

[thefunkyredcaboose]

I was cheated out of my money when I bought V and BOP. Thankfully, I learned my lesson and did not allow myself to be cheated out of money with SFBM.

You paid for a product that you could have sampled previously and you didn't like it, that isn't really cheating anyone out of anything. Plenty of people have purchased my music and didn't enjoy it, did I cheat them?

Before I piss everyone in this thread off (I'm well on my way I suppose) I am just trying to show that this whole argument of anyone being cheated out of anything is just asinine.

[OutToDry]

So then, is every band who has declining album sales cheating their fans? I don't think there is a correlation there, and besides bringing up album sales is really more of a Nick like argument.

No, but in this case we have a collective wane of Live fans dwindling with each release of non collaborative effort with the music. Bad music = no sales, more so five years ago than today.

There is certainly some correlation to quality of music and sales, but a good example (to what you're saying) is the Aerosmith debut album, they couldnt sell it well at all until a few years later. They had the backing but the fanbase wasn't buying it.

Today it's a total different arguement with CD/records sales at all time lows since the late 1980's The digital era has change the whole landscape.

This post has been edited by OutToDry: Jun 23 2010, 8:40 pm

[thefunkyredcaboose]

No, but in this case we have a collective wane of Live fans dwindling with each release of non collaborative effort with the music. Bad music = no sales, more so five years ago than today.

There is certainly some correlation to quality of music and sales, but a good example (to what you're saying) is the Aerosmith debut album, they couldnt sell it well at all until a few years later. They had the backing but the fanbase wasn't buying it.

Today it's a total different arguement with CD/records sales at all time lows since the late 1980's The digital era has change the whole landscape.

But, bad music and non-collaboration have nothing to do with anyone being cheated. There is no personal cheating offense there.

Due to my musical taste and what I think happened with the contracts (based on my own experience), I consider myself a huge TGF fan. However, I think many of the arguments made by TGF fans on this thread are just absurd.

[Bremang]

Live got $50,000 to $75,000 per night to play in front of audiences in the US. Probably more overseas. They maintained a pretty good touring schedule. I'm guessing each of the members of the band made a decent six figure income from live each year for the last decade. There was probably more money in touring than there was from publishing from SFBM. I would guess that is why C, C & P signed the ultimatum contract. That, in addition to their friendship, enjoyment of playing with each other, and love of the road, fans and playing before an audience. I would guess that the thought of doing something like TGF didn't really present itself as a viable option for their future as musicians playing in a good band before a loyal audience. They probably wanted to hold onto their connection with the loyal fanbase of Live, and given the choice of Ed walking away and watching the temple they built get destroyed, or take it with an ultimatum, they chose the ultimatum.

I don't fault Ed for making the ultimatum or them for taking it. I don't think they took it purely out of friendship. Obviously, Ed didn't make it from a motivation of friendship. It was business. Ed grabbed the creative reigns and then wanted the majority of the financial compensation to go with it.

How should C, C & P feel?

1. Ed took over creative control and went in a direction that C,C, and P didn't like. Live went soft and churchy. The popularity of Live went down the tubes as soon as the other three were excluded.

2. C, C and P took the ultimatum and accepted their 10% each.

3. Then they find out that Ed signed a publishing contract for $1,000,000 and didn't tell them and didn't give them their $100,000 each.

4. Then Ed starts touring the world, in all of Live's best markets where Live's loyal fanbase lives. Ed is playing Live's music catalog and selling tickets to the Live fanbase all for himself, to the exclusion of the other three.

5. Then Ed is selling recordings on his website of these songs from Live's catalog to Live fans to the exclusion of the other three. And he is not even paying them royalties for the sales.

6. Ed was using Live's mailing list, which is it's proprietary intellectual property, which has value, for his own exclusive purposes to the exclusion of the other three.

7. Ed started selling trinkets and coffee and T-shirts and stick figures to Live's fanbase on his website. He was cheapening the brand.


Ed was looking to make a buck off of the loyal fanbase that was the bread and butter of their careers and their life's work. He was essentially "consuming" the "commodity" that is the Live fanbase. The fanbase has a capacity to consume concert tickets, music and merchandise. And Ed not only forced an ultimatum to take 70% for himself, but then he set out to exclude C, C and P from publishing money with the secret contract and then he went out alone to make as much as he could for himself without the other guys. They stood by and watched this happen to their livelihood and the friendship.

How should they feel? Should they be so p*ssed that they might fire off a few impationed tweets?

Imagine how good Live could have been if the 4 guys continued to stay friends, and wrote everything together, living around York and Lancaster, drinking beers and rehearsing in garages. We might have gotten 5 more MJ's or TC's.

So CCP agree'd to Ed's ultimatum, and it makes sense that friendship and the love of music and touring played a role. But they sold out if they didn't like Ed's music in the first place. They bought into Ed's vision after hearing the music. They signed themselves away, and went full speed ahead. Ed's direction wasn't exactly a pivotal deterrent. They bought into an album, a world tour, etc.

When you mention CCP not wanting to ruin what they have built, and that a new band wasn't a viable option, it sounds like CCP considered just how much Ed is the key to Live and their success, and how irreplaceable he was. That is because Ed, since day one, was the unique genius spark that created and sustained Live for the most part. He had the golden ideas and voice. Ed also connected with the fans because he was the spirit and the image of the band.

Thats why in a deal in 2005, Ed gets 70%, and the 3 others get 10% each. And in some ways, Ed going behind CCP's back was good for everybody, a smart move. Ed never expected the band to fire him. Let Ed reach out the Christian rock, AC world, and let TFG reach out to the alternative rock world.

I'd like to see CCP find themselves a million dollar advance. I don't see how much harm Ed did by making a deal, where CCP get 100000 dollars each by doing nothing, writing none of the new music, doing none of the touring, and selling none of the website records. We still don't even know if Ed did or did not have the legal right to go ahead and do this. According to CCP's complaint, Ed's correspondents don't seem to think Ed is in the wrong at all, legally.


Who says it was a huge change for the band to not include the other guys. Ed wrote all of V and it sold plenty of copies. BOP with the full band didn't exactly sell that well, nor do most people think that it is definitely a better record, so whats the use?


And then, corresponding to your numbers and how CCP should feel....you might consider the following...

1. The other 3 have been excluded for V, which didn't exactly crush the band. V and SFBM were both a success internationally. Other factors beside the music also contributed to the lack of sales in the US in the past 10 years.

2. See above.

3. See above. We don't even know whether this was wrong of Ed yet. They did get 25000 each so far. The situation doesn't add up yet.

4. Is there anything wrong with playing in the market that he created?

5. Ed was selling albums on the internet, out in the open, nothing to hide. What makes you think Ed wasn't planning on giving up the royalties, they were obviously going to get this if they asked, if it was even worth the hassle. How many of those packages do you think actually got sold?

6. Ed built that list more than anyone. Why get fussy if Ed uses it? CCP have everything to gain by Ed using the list. When fans think of Ed, they think of Live, which is great for CCP. It is free advertisement. Creating and broadcasting a message to a mailing list cost tons of money and is lots of work. Does this mean CCP should be forced to put money up front for the initial payment? How exactly do you think they should be compensated?

7. When you call it a brand, you make it sound cheap already. Why don't you look at any mainstream rock bands website, and tell me if it isn't loaded with merchandise. What makes clothing less cheap than food or drinks. It is all marketing. The intentions are the same for all the products: to make money and sell to the fans. Maybe Ed's fans like coffee. Maybe Ed really loves the coffee.



So maybe Ed is trying to make a buck more now that hes a grown man then back when he was a kid. So maybe Ed tried to get away with the million dollar deal initially. His talent has provided millions of dollars, fortune and fame, and a wild ride/fulfilled life, to his band mates already. Many of us agree that Ed's talent seems to be unfortunately fading, and for the first time he has other mouths to feed. Is it definitely justified, after someone writes hit songs that will be played on radio for many years, that your band mates hold on to a third of your earnings your whole life? I'm not saying that Ed definitely deserves all the money. I know the rest of the band have worked really hard, came up with great things, and are very talented. But there are countless broke musicians/players who fall under the same description. The difference is they didn't have that super element that Ed had...anyone in the industry will tell you that overall, the singer/songwriter has the most important role in modern music.

How should CCP feel? Maybe they should feel blessed to know Ed, happy to be millionaires, happy for Ed for the 1000000 dollar deal Ed landed, happy to be getting 300000 of that deal, happy that Ed sustained them for 20 years so they could still have a presence in the industry with a new band. Or maybe they should be completely angry despite all this.

Sure, they can shoot off a few angry tweets. But I think the insults online were unnecessary, corny, and maybe hurtful to Ed's reputation.

And as for that stuff you were saying about the fans:
Warm bodies I sense are not machines that can only make money. Fans are not a commodity the way you put it. The people at his shows and who read the mailing list are people with opinions. They have a choice, and they chose Ed, or Ed won their patronage.

This post has been edited by Bremang: Jun 23 2010, 8:54 pm

[SJN1279]

No, but in this case we have a collective wane of Live fans dwindling with each release of non collaborative effort with the music. Bad music = no sales, more so five years ago than today.

There is certainly some correlation to quality of music and sales, but a good example (to what you're saying) is the Aerosmith debut album, they couldnt sell it well at all until a few years later. They had the backing but the fanbase wasn't buying it.

Today it's a total different arguement with CD/records sales at all time lows since the late 1980's The digital era has change the whole landscape.

Live's sales began declining domestically post Throwing Copper:

Throwing Copper- 8 million
SS - 2 million
TDTH- 1 Million
V/BOP 250,000 each

The majority of 90's bands sales declined steeply once the decade ended. Most took a hiatus or broke up entirely, while Live stayed together for better or worse.

However, V, BOP, and even SFBM were solid sellers in overseas markets.

[Bremang]

This post has been edited by Bremang: Jun 23 2010, 8:58 pm

[OutToDry]

But, bad music and non-collaboration have nothing to do with anyone being cheated. There is no personal cheating offense there.

Due to my musical taste and what I think happened with the contracts (based on my own experience), I consider myself a huge TGF fan. However, I think many of the arguments made by TGF fans on this thread are just absurd.

Ok fair enough. I felt cheated by Ed's hijacking of the band and SFBM record. It's a subjective statement which I hold as an opinion. It's always been my opinion and many can choose to have their own opinion on this. Some may feel the same way or not.

Here are some dancing bananas

We're cool FRC

This post has been edited by OutToDry: Jun 23 2010, 8:55 pm

[SJN1279]

Yes that was a big mistruth.

Hey, see you proved my point Nick...........Ed's lyrics on Believe are so atrocious that making any new Live material which is like Old Live is a ship that has sailed.

Honest Man is worse, and I wasn't even a fan of Believe. The screeching vocals are unbearable and it is almost impossible to decipher the lyrics.

[Bremang]

I was cheated out of my money when I bought V and BOP. Thankfully, I learned my lesson and did not allow myself to be cheated out of money with SFBM.

I guess all albums we chose to buy that we didn't end up liking can be equated to us being cheated by the band?

This post has been edited by Bremang: Jun 23 2010, 9:01 pm

[OutToDry]

When you mention CCP not wanting to ruin what they have built, and that a new band wasn't a viable option, it sounds like CCP considered just how much Ed is the key to Live and their success, and how irreplaceable he was. That is because Ed, since day one, was the unique genius spark that created and sustained Live for the most part. He had the golden ideas and voice. Ed also connected with the fans because he was the spirit and the image of the band.

Thats why in a deal in 2005, Ed gets 70%, and the 3 others get 10% each. And in some ways, Ed going behind CCP's back was good for everybody, a smart move. Ed never expected the band to fire him. Let Ed reach out the Christian rock, AC world, and let TFG reach out to the alternative rock world.

So you contend the Band was Ed and Ed alone? Lets see Ed sing w/o those 3 talented folks co writing and playing..oh yeah this is happening now. I think you place way too much of Live's success on one person.....It was the dynamic of the 4. And the business slant on Ed being favored.... This is why Mr Levin is going to get his ass railed for breaking fiduciary trust & fabricating the mil advance and taking sides against his sworn duties.

[OutToDry]

I guess all albums we chose to buy that we didn't end up liking can be equated to us being cheated by the band?

Van Halen III is another prime example of a long standing fanbase being ripped off by garbage.

I did return this record for Metallica's Load....a very good choice.

This post has been edited by OutToDry: Jun 23 2010, 9:05 pm

[Bremang]

You misconstrue my words..........C&C&P were not allowed to write any music for this 'solo' album. Ed's ultimatum ensured this. I feel cheated because it is so far away from the Old Live, I felt ripped off after reading Ed's ramblings of I promise this record will sound like TC shit....listened to it and said what a rip off.

he says that for every record. what is band supposed to do, not support their album to the fullest?