Impossible Politics Options

[gotigrz]

my "we'll see" response was a way of saying "we'll see if it actually works". there's like 20 states that are filing suit against the bill.... that should tell you something stinks about this healthcare reform bill.

i'm obviously surrounded by a bunch of liberals.

[thefunkyredcaboose]

"Liberals"? You are on a messageboard with a lot of people who don't even live in America. That label is not even applicable.

Besides, your arguments for being "conservative" are not exactly stellar. What with the gaps in logic and racist undertones and all.

I'm actually quite the moderate, but I doubt that's a concept your narrow worldview can handle.

[thefunkyredcaboose]

I don't think he even knows what he's upset about anymore...

It's because we are putting words in his mouth. Words that we quote from his posts...

[VoodooLady]

my "we'll see" response was a way of saying "we'll see if it actually works". there's like 20 states that are filing suit against the bill.... that should tell you something stinks about this healthcare reform bill.

i'm obviously surrounded by a bunch of liberals.

i would refer to myself as a progressive.. and before you say they are the same thing, i assure they are not..

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/feature/...6/progressivism

[gotigrz]

this thread has become just a bunch of personal shots, me included, and i don't care to continue in that.

my opinion still stands.... that there are people out there that work(take advantage of) the system and i believe that's wrong. does anyone disagree with that?

[thefunkyredcaboose]

this thread has become just a bunch of personal shots, me included, and i don't care to continue in that.

my opinion still stands.... that there are people out there that work(take advantage of) the system and i believe that's wrong. does anyone disagree with that?

That is just one small part of the opinions you've expressed on this thread. If that were your only opinion then you wouldn't be seeing such resistance.

Of course there are people taking advantage of the system, there are in every system. You have no factual evidence that shows an overwhelming majority of people taking advantage of the system, just your own experience largely influenced by geography. Basing your whole political stance on that is unreasonable, and many people have made great points throughout this thread concerning that.

While there has been personal shots in this thread, saying that this thread has solely become that is quite a bit of a cop-out. There are many good points being made, you are just ignoring them.

[VoodooLady]

this thread has become just a bunch of personal shots, me included, and i don't care to continue in that.

my opinion still stands.... that there are people out there that work(take advantage of) the system and i believe that's wrong. does anyone disagree with that?

if you are tired of thread and just want to end it, just say so...

but that is not what you are doing. you are entitled to your opinion - but stating your opinion and then asking of if others DISAGREE with it? that doesnt sound like "i dont care to continue" i'm sure you will respond that you dont care to continue with "personal shots"

But since you asked.. do i think there are people out there that take advantage of the system? my answer is YES, absolutely. And here is a short list of people who come to mind


1. Wall Street Executives
2. Banks who engaged in sub-prime lending
3. Bernie Madoff

all of these took advantage and exploited a largely deregulated financial system... and at the end of the day, the cost to everyday americans of the rich and powerful exploiting and working the system is exponentially greater, than those you worry about in your post about eating up your hard earned tax dollars. but i guess that is ok, because its all in the name of capitalism.

[VoodooLady]

saying that this thread has solely become that is quite a bit of a cop-out. There are many good points being made, you are just ignoring them.

[Pokey]

I've said multiple times myself that I am no fan of people cheating the system and getting away with it, however no matter how you run things there will always be someone there to cheat the system somehow.
Like the others said Gotigrz, you're stuck on that one thing. Apparently the people you don't want to cheat the system are already doing it now before any of these changes have been made and it hasn't killed you. you still have your wife, child, your job etc... Of course people will take advantage of the new changes. If governments wanted to bring in some kind of change to stop people from cheating the system we'd be back to Nazi Germany, a dictatorship.
You have to let that part go if that's your main argument.

[Existentialist]

Well, I'm not going to read through five pages of arguing so I won't reply to anything specifically, but I will lend my two cents regarding the health care bill seeing as how I will be an MD in less than a year. The health care reform will not really change a whole lot and will certainly not address the biggest problems we have in our health care system. The biggest three problems in US health care are limited access, outrageously high costs and disproportionately poor quality to show for it. I will address all three.

The reform mainly sought to fix the access problem. There are indeed well over 40 million Americans without insurance, but contrary to the target of the reform, the bottleneck really isn't at the level of insurance coverage. If anyone goes to an ER, they have to be treated and they will be treated the same as anyone with insurance. I have worked in a Level I trauma center for two years and probably half of my patients were uninsured, but I didn't know the difference unless I really looked for it in their chart, which I don't have time to do. So, on an emergency basis, health care access in America is the same for everyone. On a routine health maintenance basis, there is a difference in access. If you have good insurance, doors are open for you to see doctors anywhere in town. Without insurance, good luck. However, the reform will have the majority of the 40+ million uninsured going with Medicaid, which is not currently accepted by most physicians due to crappy reimbursement. What Blue Cross or Humana reimburses $200 for, Medicaid pays $10 for. There's not much incentive to take Medicaid patients, and the ones who see them are already overflowing with patients. We'll have a ton more people on Medicaid, and unfortunately that just means more people at the back of the line at the few doctors' offices who will see them. The real issue is not having enough primary care providers.

The main problem in US health care for the last 50 years is cost, and the reform will actually make this problem worse. In 1970, 5% of our GDP was spent on health care and this year it will approach 20%. The primary reason for this is that we have absurdly high administrative costs that other countries don't have. Since 1960, the number of health care providers per capita has about doubled, while the number of health care administrators per capita has gone up about 20 fold. All these paper pushers drive up the cost of health care big time. To repair an aortic aneurysm in the US costs about $15,000 while in Canada it costs $8,500. The difference is entirely due to administrative costs and has nothing to do with physician or hospital fees. By adding even more people onto the list of those insured and giving insurance companies more incentive to add administrators, the costs will only go up. Eventually this is going to collapse, because if we continue at our current rate, half of our nation's economy will be health care related by 2040. Disaster!

So, in summary, the reform will probably help a small subset of people, as just about any government action does. However, it really isn't going to solve much in the way of access to care and can only change costs for the worse. Most doctors agree that the first necessary step to real change is to take qualified health care administrators and retrain them as primary care providers. Primary care medicine really isn't too hard and a lot of people could do it with proper training, and with the exponentially growing complexity of medicine, it would be a waste to have MDs with 8+ years of post-university training doing primary care. I hate pretty much all politicians, Obama included, but I think this is a fair assessment. Not too much "change"!

[FishOutaWater]

I would like to personally thank gotigrz, because if it were not for the political and religious debate with him, there really wouldn't be much to care about around here until about June or July. But this stuff is entertaining and has me coming back to the boards a couple times a day to see what is being said next. Thanks.

[Wambangalang]

hey gotigrz i didnt know you drink at this pub link

[gotigrz]

sorry, wam... that link has copyright protection here in the US. but, i'm sure it was nice. so, thanks!!!

[Wambangalang]

darn it, it was just a link to a simpsons clip when the town is asked to vote on proposition 24 regarding the deportation of all illegal immigrants, and moe's like "you know what really aggrovizes me about dem immi'gants, they want all the benefits of livin in springfield, but they dont wanna learn demselves da language" and homers like, "yeah, those are exactly my sentimonies" and everyone laughed and you really had to be there i guess

This post has been edited by Wambangalang: Apr 13 2010, 2:25 am

[jayda]

trust me, the united states of america didn't become the greatest country in the world for so long by running the country the way we are heading. the people of australia can only hope that they go to the old way of the usa... the working people, anyway.

The 'old' (current?) US health system is pretty much the laughing stock of the First World countries.