Impossible Politics Options

[Pokey]

gotigrz probably formed his opinion while waving his little american flag

[gotigrz]

that's the confederacy flag... not the american flag... i know you know that, but anyway...

look, healthcare aside, i work in a business that sees so many people take advantage of the system. people coming in and paying their bills with money that was provided by the gov't while they are talking on their cell phones, with extensions in their hair, with 5 kids all from different daddies. these kind of people are a dime a dozen in this country, and these are the ones that are gonna reap the benefits of this healthcare system. and, i know a lot of you ask me... "what would Jesus do"... honestly, i don't know... i don't think Jesus is in the business of helping those that don't want to help themselves.

am i 100% sure obama is joke of pres???... no. am i 100% sure that there are too many people that are being allowed to take advantage of hard working american tax money??? yes... and, that is what i want someone to step in and say.... "uh, not so fast, bum".

like i said, if someone needs the gov't because they can't help themselves... fine. but, there are too many that have just learned to live off the gov't and don't want to get out there and earn a living cause they don't know how cause they've never done it.

[thefunkyredcaboose]

look, healthcare aside, i work in a business that sees so many people take advantage of the system. people coming in and paying their bills with money that was provided by the gov't while they are talking on their cell phones, with extensions in their hair, with 5 kids all from different daddies. these kind of people are a dime a dozen in this country, and these are the ones that are gonna reap the benefits of this healthcare system. and, i know a lot of you ask me... "what would Jesus do"... honestly, i don't know... i don't think Jesus is in the business of helping those that don't want to help themselves.

Again, the words you are looking for are "welfare reform." This isn't a "healthcare system," it's a government mandate to receive care with provisions that will make it easier for people to do that.

Right now, if someone goes to the hospital who has no insurance, the cost ultimately goes to those of us who pay for our insurance in higher premiums. Providing insurance, even through medicaid, for more people is going to help those of us who are already paying.

So, ultimately this means that less of your money will be going to people you seem to have such disdain for.

Now, let's talk welfare just for a moment, since that's really what you are discussing. It is true that welfare benefits allow people to live off of them, should they choose, but ONLY in places with a low enough cost of living to support it (places like South Carolina). This is not true for the whole of the country, it is much more of a regional problem.

Your basic premise of "people working to get what they deserve" is fundamentally flawed. It assumes that everyone has the same opportunities in their family and in their community to make it on their own. The civil rights movement and mass immigration are both so new that our country is still trying to figure out how to help those people who don't have the same opportunities as the predominately white middle class. Part of that is being worked out in this bill, but a very small part.

Ultimately it comes down to this: if there is a system people will always try to take advantage of it. In this country, there are ultimately more people who truly NEED welfare (and need healthcare) than those who are taking advantage of the system. It's not a perfect system, but it does help the poor, which if I recall Jesus was sort of into.

[Pokey]

Now, let's talk welfare just for a moment, since that's really what you are discussing. It is true that welfare benefits allow people to live off of them, should they choose, but ONLY in places with a low enough cost of living to support it (places like South Carolina). This is not true for the whole of the country, it is much more of a regional problem.

And this is true in most places around the world too. We have the same argument made about people who are living off the system and all that. But They're not exactly living an afluent and luxurious lifestyle this way. If I want something nice I work for it, I could do nothing and have enough to just get by .. but I don't want to live like that. I want money for a nice car and a trip overseas and a new PS3 (for red dead redemtion, seriously get on that shit .. it's like GTA but in a Western form, you can ride horses, do duals, chase guys for bounties or join gangs .. even the way you dress effects how other characters interact with you .. so gonna wear the poncho from the Sergio Leonie/Clint Eastwood trilogy .. anyways) .. these are the things that I want that I have to work for. I know that if I left my job and just collected my dole cheque every fortnight that I would not be able to do this. So yes it does annoy me sometimes that people are living off the system, but at the same time fuck them .. they're living off the system for a life that I would detest.

[gotigrz]

ok, explain something to me... cause i will admit, i'm pretty uneducated when it comes to politics and that i base my knowledge on what i hear and not so much on what i know... if that makes sense. anyway, i'm under the impression that if obama gets his way, we will have the same kind of healthcare system that canada has.... a free healthcare for everybody, but get in line if you need some serious operation cause you're not entitled to that operation any more than the guy standing in front of you... even though he doesn't lift a finger to support himself by having a job and paying taxes that fund the operation.... while you do.

is this completely wrong? completely right? partially right and wrong.... what???

[Pokey]

Can't comment on that myself, but I thought that's what Obama would like, but not exactly what's happening right now .. I thought right now was more to do with private health insurance and their limitations and such? I dunno, Fish will answer that well.

Canada's system sounds pretty close to ours ... the public system is a system where waiting times usually will apply to most people, it's generally based off priority where if someone suddenly appears with a more urgent need to have surgery than you then they could end up taking your doctor and you're pushed further back into the queue. This can be a problem and unfortunatly there is no way to make everyone happy.
People pay for this medicare system here through their taxes ... high income earners pay more than your average Joe (unless said high income earner takes out private health insurance whereby he is exempt from paying the higher tax). The private health insurance here doesn't cover you to go to your local GP or any outpatient services (besides dental, optical, physio, chrio etc). Medicare covers for GP and specialist visits like radiology and pathology etc...

Private health insurance for the most part isn't that expensive here, so if you want to pay more to not have to wait then you can do so. I personally don't think the waiting is all that bad here given if something is an emergency you're still going to get seen straight away. I think a lot of people have these images of having a heart attack and then being told you'll need to wait a few days to see a doctor.

What I don't like here is the system the Howard government put into place in July 2000 called the Lifetime Healthcover Loading. Basically anyone who takes out private hospital cover over the age of 30 will be charged a tax of 2% of their premium for every year that they are over 30. So if you don't take out private hospital cover until you're 40 then you have a 20% loading ontop of your regular premium to pay. It was designed to take pressure off the public system by encouraging the people that could afford private to take it out. But 30 just seems like a bad age to bring it it, the average person who is 30 doesn't think they need private health insurance and they pay for that later on. The age should be at LEAST 40 if anything.

[FishOutaWater]

Right now, if someone goes to the hospital who has no insurance, the cost ultimately goes to those of us who pay for our insurance in higher premiums. Providing insurance, even through medicaid, for more people is going to help those of us who are already paying.

I agree. And people who don't have insurance go to a hospital emergency room for routine services because they are not denied service there. So it screws up the emergency rooms and adds costs to the system that are already borne by everyone else. In addition - people without health insurance get no preventative care. So when they get advanced, undetected diseases, they become a greater burden on the system, or just die.

If you step back and think about it, what would you have these people do? What is the alternative? The only option for these people is to die in the streets or show up in an emergency room and get treated for free. I would prefer to see them paying for affordable insurance.

This is not a government take-over of the healthcare system. It's not even close. It is just sensible regulations over an industry that had run amuck. But Republicans are so deep in the pockets of the big businesses that they were screaming bloody murder - Obama is going to kill grandma and hold "death panels". I can't even believe people can entertain those notions with a straight face.

I saw some scary sh*t on Rachel Maddow last night. There are a number of conservative groups literally planning armned protests, armed with guns, to march on the capital in Virginia and another march to get as close to the capital as they can. One conservative nut bag was spewing the exact same talking points you hear on Fox the other day and was arrested by the FBI for viscious death threats made against a Washington State Congresswoman. Congressman Lewis made voicemails he received public yesterday in which crazy people were shouting viscious, racist death threats in voicemails to him. It is getting crazy out there and Beck, Hannity, Limbaugh, Palin, O'Reilly and the Tea Baggers are grossly irresponsible and directly to blame for this stuff. They are sensationalizing this inflamatory rhettoric for ratings and money, getting big contracts and selling books and speaking engagements, off of inflamatory rhettoric and lies that no sane person can believe. It appeals to a radical, dangerous, fanatical wing of the Republican party and they are throwing gasoline on a fire. They treat politics like it's WWE professional wrestling. It's dangerous behavior. It really is. They create this sense of urgency and fear and danger. They say that Pelosi and Obama and their fascist, communist, marxist, communist takover is going to literally destroy our country. The end is almost here. Our country is doomed! Pack away your food and rations for what is coming, take up your guns and form a militia and take this country back into your own hands from those evil Hitlers that hate America. I swear I have heard this very rhetoric from the likes of Glenn Beck. Just look at the advertisers on his show. People who buy and sell gold (to proect you when our economy gets destroyed) and a company that sells you a 40 supply of bunker food that will last 20 years. I'm not making that up - I swear I heard those sponsors with actual commercials on his show. That guy is dangerous and as soon as some Democrat is assasinated by some stirred up nut job - I will look at the likes of him for being directly repsonsible.

This post has been edited by FishOutaWater: Apr 7 2010, 10:50 am

[thefunkyredcaboose]

ok, explain something to me... cause i will admit, i'm pretty uneducated when it comes to politics and that i base my knowledge on what i hear and not so much on what i know... if that makes sense. anyway, i'm under the impression that if obama gets his way, we will have the same kind of healthcare system that canada has.... a free healthcare for everybody, but get in line if you need some serious operation cause you're not entitled to that operation any more than the guy standing in front of you... even though he doesn't lift a finger to support himself by having a job and paying taxes that fund the operation.... while you do.

is this completely wrong? completely right? partially right and wrong.... what???

Addressing a couple of things:

1. "Obama getting his way" - This is problematic. Myself, and millions of other Americans, voted for Barack Obama. For many of us, a large part of that had to do with health care reform. None of this is about Obama "getting his way," it's about the voters getting what they voted for. By the way, I am also no democrat, but a moderate in favor of social reform.

2. Pokey addressed the issues with waiting lines and all, but his key point is that you would still be able to purchase your own insurance if you didn't want to wait. Would a system like Canada's or the UK's work in the larger country of America? Maybe, maybe not, but we don't have to worry about that because this bill was largely bi-partisan and thus the public option was removed early on.

Now, the bigger issue here is that you should educate yourself beyond FOXnews (and any other media outlet) and what you hear from people who educate themselves in the same flawed way. The media loves sensationalism, and thus promotes only the most extreme opinions. If you must, watch FOXnews AND CNN to at least get both sides of the same story. Then, READ, seek out your own information, not just what people tell you.

My recommendation for this? Read the health care bill yourself. It's freely available and yes it's long, but important policy should be long. If you can't read it, then don't jump so readily to oppose it on message boards.

[VoodooLady]

ok, explain something to me... cause i will admit, i'm pretty uneducated when it comes to politics and that i base my knowledge on what i hear and not so much on what i know... if that makes sense. anyway, i'm under the impression that if obama gets his way, we will have the same kind of healthcare system that canada has.... a free healthcare for everybody, but get in line if you need some serious operation cause you're not entitled to that operation any more than the guy standing in front of you... even though he doesn't lift a finger to support himself by having a job and paying taxes that fund the operation.... while you do.

is this completely wrong? completely right? partially right and wrong.... what???

Wrong, the HCR act is not socialized medicine, nor is it even close to single payer system.

In a nutshell, healthcare reform expands insurance coverage in America by requiring people to obtain it. either through their employer, or, if their employer doesn’t offer health insurance, they can buy it through new “exchanges” that will sell policies to individuals. There is a fine if you don’t comply with the mandate. For those who can’t afford to buy the insurance—i.e., the working poor – may qualify for subsidies or a discounted rate (and the govt picks up the difference).

This is an oversimplification, and there are some exceptions/details i didnt go into.. but this is the basic jist of what it is..

I'm certain if you spend some time researching this on the net this will be the basic takeaway message from most news sources/organizations- with the exception of Foxnews-- (with the exception of Sheppard Smith who seems pretty balanced).

[Pokey]

Just to break off topic for a moment, this is where I'm a little bit ignorant of American politics. More so to do with the voters. It seems like a lot of people in America treat it like a sport (Fish mentioned WWE)... like you have "your team", republican or democrat. In Australia we have Labor party (supposedly the more 'working class' party) and the liberal party ... but you'll often hear of people not declaring love for either and in 2 different elections could easily vote for one or the other. Same with the UK with Labor and the Tories .. but with America it really seems like for the most part you pick your side and they're your dudes?

[thefunkyredcaboose]

Just to break off topic for a moment, this is where I'm a little bit ignorant of American politics. More so to do with the voters. It seems like a lot of people in America treat it like a sport (Fish mentioned WWE)... like you have "your team", republican or democrat. In Australia we have Labor party (supposedly the more 'working class' party) and the liberal party ... but you'll often hear of people not declaring love for either and in 2 different elections could easily vote for one or the other. Same with the UK with Labor and the Tories .. but with America it really seems like for the most part you pick your side and they're your dudes?

I think it has a lot to do with many Americans not knowing how to think for themselves. They just go with what their family, friends or even their church tells them. There are a substantial number of moderates who do vote based on the issues each election, though.

This all begins with a subpar educational system, but that's really a matter for another day...

[VoodooLady]

Just to break off topic for a moment, this is where I'm a little bit ignorant of American politics. More so to do with the voters. It seems like a lot of people in America treat it like a sport (Fish mentioned WWE)... like you have "your team", republican or democrat. In Australia we have Labor party (supposedly the more 'working class' party) and the liberal party ... but you'll often hear of people not declaring love for either and in 2 different elections could easily vote for one or the other. Same with the UK with Labor and the Tories .. but with America it really seems like for the most part you pick your side and they're your dudes?

I think what you see is that the most vocal are those that are entrenched (sometimes deeply) on EITHER side.. if you pay close attention you will see in the recent health care reform debates some progressive were very angry with the democrats for NOT supporting a public option (didnt make it into the final bill) and republicans are "eating their own" for not being conservative enough. For example, John McCain is being challenged for his senate seat in the REPUBLICAN primary by someone who says McCain isnt conservative enough, likewise in Florida, where republican gov. Charlie Christ is being challenged for the senate seat by ultraconservative Marco Rubio. On the Dem side, senators and congressmen are being challenged for their seats if they voted against health care reform..

But this show is limited to the "arena" - the most engaged in either party are pushing their candidates to the extreme. the question is how will that play out in general elections? a good third of the population consider themselves to be independents

http://www.pollster.com/polls/us/party-id.php

yes, some folks vote the "party line" regardless of the candidate, but just because you are a card carrying democrat or republican doesnt mean you are locked in with your vote..

hope this gives you a little insight into the fucked up world of american politics..

[Sakhmet2]

you can have him... obama, that is... bruce is ours. obama is turning this country into communism/socialism so fast it's not even funny. this country was built on capitalism and that's what has made our country so great. you have a dream, you work for it, you get it. now, with obama at the helm, you have a dream, you work for it, everyone else reaps the benefits.

some might see that as keeping the rich from getting richer and letting the poor enjoy what they wouldn't be able to... that sounds good. but, another way to look at is.... it's taking out incentive. no incentive to work hard cause you're gonna have to pay for that lazy slob's health care and cell phone.... and, no incentive for the lazy slob to get off their butt and get a job cause the gov't is gonna take from the hard working wealthy and give to them.

The "hard-working wealthy" . I don't know whether to laugh or puke. If you think that all people with money earned it through hard work, and that the poor are poor because they don't work hard, you haven't lived in the real world.

I feel sick. Actually sick at reading your ridiculous justification of unbridled greed. Capitalism did not make America great. That is the great delusion promoted by 20th century America in general and still by the Right in the U.S. - something that is actually contrary to the the ideals that really made America.

Everything you've said on other posts show that you don't do your research, you just base your opinions on stereotypes and limited personal experience.

This post has been edited by Sakhmet2: Apr 7 2010, 1:13 pm

[gotigrz]

If you think that all people with money earned it through hard work, and that the poor are poor because they don't work hard, you haven't lived in the real world.

if you think that's what i think, then you haven't read all of my posts. i specifically said that i have no problem with those that need the gov't's help... need it... not those that abuse it. there are tons of those that abuse it, and that is the one's that i have a problem with. period.

Capitalism did not make America great. That is the great American delusion.

this coming from a canadian. well, there is no doubt that the united states of america is, or at least was, one of the greatest countries in the world to live in. that is not debatable. so, if capitalism is the great american delusion.... then tell me what is it, or was it, that made the usa so great?

This post has been edited by gotigrz: Apr 7 2010, 1:20 pm

[thefunkyredcaboose]

"If you think that all people with money earned it through hard work, and that the poor are poor because they don't work hard, you haven't lived in the real world.".....

if you think that's what i think, then you haven't read all of my posts. i specifically said that i have no problem with those that need the gov't's help... need it... not those that abuse it. there are tons of those that abuse it, and that is the one's that i have a problem with. period.
this coming from a canadian. well, there is no doubt that the united states of america is, or at least was, one of the greatest countries in the world to live in. that is not debatable. so, if capitalism is the great american delusion.... then tell me what is it, or was it, that made the usa so great?

You admit you don't know much about anything other than what people tell you, yet you continue arguing in this thread. I just don't get it. And now you are ripping on Canadians??

Define capitalism without looking it up on the internet. I dare you.