gotigrz's Christianity topic, part 2 Options

[Pokey]

I just find it so funny that the reason you think I don't follow God anymore is because God allows me not to follow him. If God isn't going out of his way to make me see the light, then I don't understand why some Christians are. If free will is given by God and that in his eyes I can believe whatever I want then why do some Christians go out and try to save people and bring them around to seeing God when God himself doesn't do this? You can't say that God does in certain ways because then it isn't true free will.

Of course it's not the path the child will always choose, myself is the example. But like I say, children are extremely impressionable, and its just something I don't think should be taught in schools. Or if you're going to teach it in schools, teach multiple religions .. give people an insight into lots of different views. What he was teaching was in a way judgement, but it was also hate ... he believed that because these people were gay that they DESERVED to go to hell. Thinking someone deserves to go to hell because of their sexuality to me is hate. If I say to someone in every day life "you deserve to go to hell", that is generally considered a hateful thing to say. Regardless of how I turned out, I think a universal teaching of understanding each other and tolerance and accepting will be much more beneficial to a child as opposed as to when to stand and kneel in church. You can argue that learning about God is learning to be understanding and accepting and all that, but it's not really, you yourself said that you don't agree with Gays for example.

[Merica]

santa claus is made up, the easter bunny is made up, the tooth fairy is made up, etc... all these ARE made up, and yet kids still, to this day, believe. except when they find out on their own or someone tells them the truth. so, if God is just as made up as the tooth fairy, they why are there so many people that believe this to their grave? why is God not obviously a farce to every intelligent grown adult? why are there so many historical writings about God, and so many testimonies of how God has worked in lives, when, by that time, they should know that God is just made up? if God's made up, then why is He still around for so many people? don't say cause it gives them comfort about death... cause if the truth was that when you die.... you die and that's it, i wouldn't have near as much a problem with that as i would spending eternity in Hell. and, that's not to try to scare someone to believing: i don't think you can do that.

You can't compare God to Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny in terms of people believing. It's totally different. God has been pushed for more, and as something more. Doesn't mean it could be any less untrue. A large collection of factors, aided by gross reproduction of his existance as a dominant idealogy have led "him" to still exist today.

[Sakhmet2]

You can't compare God to Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny in terms of people believing. It's totally different. God has been pushed for more, and as something more. Doesn't mean it could be any less untrue. A large collection of factors, aided by gross reproduction of his existance as a dominant idealogy have led "him" to still exist today.

Very true. No one's ever been tortured and then burned at the stake for not believing in the Easter Bunny or Santa.

well, you're partially right... what he actually preaching is "judgment". i don't agree with gays either, but i don't agree with a lot of sins that i commit myself. and, in the eyes of humans, sins have degrees... but, in the eyes of God, i believe sin is sin. therefore, i'd be just as guilty for judging a gay person as the gay person is guilty for being gay.

But what constitutes a "sin" differs from one religion to another, so many sins are just stuff that someone with power to influences others pulls out of their ass to promote a particular point of view, or exercise control over others.

This post has been edited by Sakhmet2: Mar 24 2010, 11:40 am

[gotigrz]

If free will is given by God and that in his eyes I can believe whatever I want then why do some Christians go out and try to save people and bring them around to seeing God when God himself doesn't do this? You can't say that God does in certain ways because then it isn't true free will.

ok. first as Christians, it is our called duty to witness to EVERYONE: saved, unsaved, atheists, budhists, muslims, EVERYONE. so, that is why we do it... we're not picking up God's slack... witnessing is showing others the love you have for God and the love you receive from God. and, i don't believe that God isn't going out of His way to show you Himself cause i believe i see God just by looking around at the world we live in, not the world that we, faulty humans created, but the world that would be if all humans treated each other the way that God intended. it IS your CHOICE to acknowledge what is the work of God and what is not,... so that IS free will.

Of course it's not the path the child will always choose, myself is the example. But like I say, children are extremely impressionable, and its just something I don't think should be taught in schools. Or if you're going to teach it in schools, teach multiple religions .. give people an insight into lots of different views.

i'm not gonna teach my child anything, really. my child will learn by example and not so much by words. when a child is born, it isn't given the choice on what it wants to eat. a parent feeds the child to nourish the body, because the parent knows best. a child will eat candy and ice cream all day if you let it. just as a Christian parent knows that a Christian household will nourish their child's life. that child WILL still, one day, have to choose whether they want to follow the Christian life or not, but if the child decides that he hates God and the idea of It, the parent wont have to say... "i didn't teach them any better". how many obese people are the way they are because their parents let them eat whatever they screamed and cried for to pacify them?

What he was teaching was in a way judgement, but it was also hate ... he believed that because these people were gay that they DESERVED to go to hell. Thinking someone deserves to go to hell because of their sexuality to me is hate. If I say to someone in every day life "you deserve to go to hell", that is generally considered a hateful thing to say.

first of all, if Heaven and Hell are real.... i got news for you,... WE ALL deserve to go to Hell. when someone points a finger, they're pointing three right back at themselves. so, do they deserve to go to Hell for being gay? well, i believe so. but, i deserve to go to Hell for getting drunk, or for judging others, or all the sins i've ever committed or will commit. that's why no one is saved by their works or good deeds, but only through faith by grace.

You can argue that learning about God is learning to be understanding and accepting and all that, but it's not really, you yourself said that you don't agree with Gays for example.

well, actually it is. we believe that the bible is Gods word, i know that's debatable, but what's not debatable is the teachings of Jesus. Jesus taught to be EXACTLY what you described as a perfect society. Jesus never said to be intolerable of others. He taught the opposite.

so, when a Christian points fingers, that doesn't mean that Christianity is wrong,... it means that Christians aren't perfect, either. pointing fingers + judging = sin = everybody, including Christians. when a cop commits a crime... you don't question the justice system... you question the cop. if every cop ALWAYS abides by the law, that doesn't make the law any more "right" than it would be if every cop broke the law.... the law is still the law... it's the cop that is wrong.

This post has been edited by gotigrz: Mar 24 2010, 2:33 pm

[ridley]

it honestly bothered me that ed was singing about things that my soul didn't agree with, so i stopped listening and i actually prayed that ed would find Jesus Christ, cause i could tell in his lyrics that he was looking for truth, and i truly believe that he's found it.

So it's YOU who's to blame for THIS:

[Wambangalang]

i cant believe you used santa clause and the easter bunny as an analogy. maths i dont care for so thats ok.

children arent told that they will burn in hellfire for eternity for not believing in santa. It is child abuse. That damage never goes away. all the religions have perverted mankind for millenia with sexual repression and a genuine disgust of the female birth canal. (even the dali lama says its ok to jerk off with your right hand but not your left....who the fuck gave him the authority to convince people of that?)

we are the first highly evolved mammal that knows it is going to die. that fact has led to all of this. Realising that this is in fact the truth, can either bring about great despair or maybe a new kind of enlightenment. If this life is all we have then we should live it freely and with happiness because it is the most precious gift imaginable. Religion rapes us of this. It tortures the soul and perverts life.

Now if i do find myself in line at the gates of st peter upon my demise and clearly owing an explanation for my blasphemy, at least i can look god in the eye and say "i stuck to my convictions because all the evidence you provided, or lack thereof, gave me no reason to believe in you". Unlike the majority of the flock who "believe" because they dont wanna bathe in the lake of fire like...i dunno, forever!

[Pokey]

first of all, if Heaven and Hell are real.... i got news for you,... WE ALL deserve to go to Hell.

I would love to be able to come back from the dead to prove you wrong "yo dude, by the way, we kinda just rot in the ground and thats it.." ... but then that'd be a bit of a catch 22 as to how I was able to come back and argh *exploding head*.

This is something I still don't understand ... ok so lets say there Jesus was real, at least there was a person by that name doing deeds that could eventually be written into stories and such .. regardless of how accurate it is, it's all gotta come from somewhere. There is so called evidence like his tomb and burrial robes and all that kinda mumbojumbo ... I can see how someone who wants to cling to faith could convince themselves thats all real.

But there is absolutely NOTHING to prove in any way shape or form that there is an after life in either heaven or hell. Everything that happend on Earth can be debateable (even though I think the Christian history of life is wrong) ... still at least debateable. How anyone can just say that Heaven and Hell are real is beyond me.

I would love to know what would happen if we found life on other planets. As far as I know there is nothing anywhere in the bible or Christian teachings which mention life forms outside of Earth. So if there were to be some, how would Christians react to this? Would you say God created them also even though nothing you've believed in for years pointed to any of that? Would you admit to maybe there being more than one God for different galaxies? What if these beings had proof of their own creation and history whether is be scientific or religious in their own rights ... would you still tell them they're wrong and God created them and they are subject to heaven and hell too?

It sort of brings up a point earlier in this thread, if someone has no exposure to the teachings of God, then how can they be fairly judged at the end? Again the aboriginals of Australia worshiped a giant rainbow snake that carved out the land for them ... surely something that breaks one of the commandments .. but they were here for thousands and thousands of years before the word of God was brought to them ... how were they to know? If God gave them free will to believe these things, why would he also not go "Hey you're free to believe whatever you want, but eh .. there aint no giant rainbow snake". So in your eyes they are condemed to hell simply through no fault of their own. God truely must be our father who loves all his children ... except them.

[gotigrz]

But there is absolutely NOTHING to prove in any way shape or form that there is an after life in either heaven or hell. Everything that happend on Earth can be debateable (even though I think the Christian history of life is wrong) ... still at least debateable. How anyone can just say that Heaven and Hell are real is beyond me.

ok, let's say you're father, who you know loves you more than life himself, is there for you no matter what, supports you in every aspect of your life, leaves absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he wouldn't gain anything by lying to you...... now, unfortunately your mom has passed and later on he said that he had never had sex with your mom before they were married. can he prove this? no. would you believe him? i would... not because of proof or the lack there of,... but, because you believe that your father wouldn't lie to you. this is why i believe in Heaven... i have no proof, i have no idea what Heaven is like, i do not believe it's the way hollywood makes it out to be... but, nevertheless, i believe because i don't believe that my ultimate Father, God, would lie to me. i know that churches, today, and preachers and such, may benefit from preaching the word of God, but the people that actually wrote the stories in the bible had nothing to benefit from.... so why lie about it?

I would love to know what would happen if we found life on other planets. As far as I know there is nothing anywhere in the bible or Christian teachings which mention life forms outside of Earth. So if there were to be some, how would Christians react to this? Would you say God created them also even though nothing you've believed in for years pointed to any of that? Would you admit to maybe there being more than one God for different galaxies? What if these beings had proof of their own creation and history whether is be scientific or religious in their own rights ... would you still tell them they're wrong and God created them and they are subject to heaven and hell too?

well, the bible doesn't mention aliens or life outside of earth, except Heaven and Hell.... but, it doesn't directly say that there's not life outside of earth, either. but, i have never seen an alien, i don't know anyone who has, i have no reason to think that there is such a thing. i would need proof. on the other hand, i don't need proof of Heaven and Hell cause those are not of this world, therefor, i know they are not provable.... aliens, if there are any, WOULD be of this world. but, if they did find extraterrestrial life, it would definitely put a kink in the Christian doctrine, and i guess we'd have to burn that bridge when we got there, but they haven't found anything that has done that, yet... so, i'm not gonna sit around and wait for such a thing. you can if you want.

[Pokey]

ok, let's say you're father, who you know loves you more than life himself, is there for you no matter what, supports you in every aspect of your life, leaves absolutely no doubt whatsoever that he wouldn't gain anything by lying to you...... now, unfortunately your mom has passed and later on he said that he had never had sex with your mom before they were married. can he prove this? no. would you believe him? i would... not because of proof or the lack there of,... but, because you believe that your father wouldn't lie to you. this is why i believe in Heaven... i have no proof, i have no idea what Heaven is like, i do not believe it's the way hollywood makes it out to be... but, nevertheless, i believe because i don't believe that my ultimate Father, God, would lie to me. i know that churches, today, and preachers and such, may benefit from preaching the word of God, but the people that actually wrote the stories in the bible had nothing to benefit from.... so why lie about it?

Because it is a popular belief that the concept of Heaven and Hell were used to keep people in line. a form of moral concious, that to me would state that in ways there are things to be gained by lying about it. Your analogy doesn't really translate well, what you're talking about like you say doesn't really matter, at the end of the day he's still your father, you can see him, you can touch him etc ... with Heaven and Hell, these are things we can't interact with.

well, the bible doesn't mention aliens or life outside of earth, except Heaven and Hell.... but, it doesn't directly say that there's not life outside of earth, either. but, i have never seen an alien, i don't know anyone who has, i have no reason to think that there is such a thing. i would need proof. on the other hand, i don't need proof of Heaven and Hell cause those are not of this world, therefor, i know they are not provable.... aliens, if there are any, WOULD be of this world. but, if they did find extraterrestrial life, it would definitely put a kink in the Christian doctrine, and i guess we'd have to burn that bridge when we got there, but they haven't found anything that has done that, yet... so, i'm not gonna sit around and wait for such a thing. you can if you want.

lol I love it "I've never seen an Alien so I dont think they exist, i've never seen god, but man he's there!" ... I'm not saying I've seen them or anything like that, but given the vastness of the universe that we know so far, to outright say there is no other life out there is a majorly big call. So I'm just hypothetically speaking if they were to turn up, in any shape or form.

I wasn't using this as a way to say sit around and wait, but to consider the possibility if it did happen that it would have to pull so many faiths into question.

[gotigrz]

Because it is a popular belief that the concept of Heaven and Hell were used to keep people in line.

right,... but it's also a popular belief that Heaven and Hell are eternal reward and punishment for obeying or rejecting God.

a form of moral concious, that to me would state that in ways there are things to be gained by lying about it.

so, you're saying that all the authors of all 66 books of the bible thought to himself... "i'll write this stuff down so that it will be true for me and i'll feel better about myself"? i don't think so. if they made it up, then they know they made it up, and therefore they know it isn't true so there's no way they could gain any "moral conscious". if anything, it would be the opposite cause they KNOW it's a lie.

Your analogy doesn't really translate well, what you're talking about like you say doesn't really matter, at the end of the day he's still your father, you can see him, you can touch him etc ... with Heaven and Hell, these are things we can't interact with.

true, but we both have to agree that arguing the existence of God BASED ON PROOF is an ongoing debate that has been going on for thousands of years and is not likely to be settled on a message board. so, we have to debate or discuss "God" with what we DO know and what we can observe and form an opinion on.... science, the bible, personal experiences, etc....

lol I love it "I've never seen an Alien so I dont think they exist, i've never seen god, but man he's there!"

wow... you twisted it even when i thought i stated it in a way that i thought you couldn't. i said, that aliens, if there are any, would be of this world and would be provable. God, Heaven and Hell are not of this world, and are not provable or disprovable. there is a difference.

... I'm not saying I've seen them or anything like that, but given the vastness of the universe that we know so far, to outright say there is no other life out there is a majorly big call. So I'm just hypothetically speaking if they were to turn up, in any shape or form. I wasn't using this as a way to say sit around and wait, but to consider the possibility if it did happen that it would have to pull so many faiths into question.

like i said, if we find aliens or if they show up... that would be something that Christians would have to deal with, but it hasn't happened, so, as a Christian, there is no point in worrying about it... a Christian isn't worried about anyone proving the non existence of God, cause we know, in a way that is hard to explain, that THAT is never gonna happen. so, we don't spend our time worrying or preparing for it.

It sort of brings up a point earlier in this thread, if someone has no exposure to the teachings of God, then how can they be fairly judged at the end?

2 Peter 2:21 says of evildoers, "It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them."

to me, this says that God is aware that some people will not hear "the word of God". and, those people will be shown more mercy than the one who do hear it and choose to reject it.

This post has been edited by gotigrz: Mar 25 2010, 9:00 am

[Pokey]

right,... but it's also a popular belief that Heaven and Hell are eternal reward and punishment for obeying or rejecting God.

That was kind of my point, using it as a way of policing people psychologically ... reward and punishment for how you live your life. There is plenty to gain from it, and its not totally a bad thing.

Anyways, the only thing you've said that I agree with is that we arent gaining anything here. I'm gonna continue to not believe and you'll think I'm going to hell, and you'll continue to believe and I think you'll just rot in the ground with no after life .. simple, I'm at peace with it

[gotigrz]

If, after all we have discussed, you are at peace with what you believe then i am, too. i feel i have done my duty as a Christian and the rest is up to you. good luck, pokey!

[VoodooLady]

If, after all we have discussed, you are at peace with what you believe then i am, too. i feel i have done my duty as a Christian and the rest is up to you. good luck, pokey!

THANK GOD.

are we done now?

[thefunkyredcaboose]

I can wait to be in eternal hellfire with all you guys! Well, except gotigrz, he'll be elsewhere apparently.

[FishOutaWater]

Here's what I can't rationalize. Let's assume that there is one God. Let's assume that God is the creator and is infinite, unknowable and impossible to be comprehended by our limited human intellects, our limited ability to understand, our finite experience and perception as human beings. And let's assume that God can be called whatever name human societies wish to choose to refer to God. Whether it be God, or creator or consciouness or light or Brahma or Buddha mind, or any of the hebrew names for God in the Jewish religion. All of those names are imperfect, because names are limited by our use of language and concepts and words ans are finite, and therefore they cannot provide a complete and inclusive description of God. Each religious tradition has developed in various societies and those people's framework for understanding, worshiping and experiencing God. If we have asusmed that there is one God that is the infinite creator of all things and all peoples, does God care what traditions and words and texts and methods are used by this billion people over here or that billion people over there to supplicate themselves and cleave to God, and live a life that is congruent with the principles and purpose of the divine creator? I don't think so.

Here is an intellectual problem that I have with belief-oriented Christianity. As human beings we are capable of forming beliefs. It is a neuro-cognative process in our brains by which we process certain reference data that lead us to a conclusion that forms a belief. You must also factor in variables like societal conditioning and outside influences. Belief-oriented Christianity has emphasized the idea that if a person believes a certain set of facts about events that occurred 2,000 years ago are true, then you go to heaven and if you don't, you go to hell. They call it "faith" when you are called to believe a set of facts to be true when you have no direct reference data and you believe without direct personal evidence.

I don't think that this is a system that reflects fairness or jsutice. It doesn't even make sense to me. Why would the infinite creator of all things set up such rules? Why would God set up such an arbitrary system that has such high stakes? That doesn't make any sense.

I also cannot belief in an anthropomorphicized God - a father, a king or a lord - who sets up rules like blood covenants and sacrifice and so on - and then judges and condemns to damnation like this. Why would God need to make himself into his only son, and then suffer torture and resurrection and then test whether people believe that happened for the next 2,000 years in order for sins to be forgiven and in order to attain salvation? That makes no sense.

And if there is one God, and you believe that Jesus was God (one in the same) then why would God care if you are a Christian and you direct your religious experience through his personified figure of Jesus or directly to God without the side-car. If a Jew has a direct relationship with God, and a Christian has a relationship with Jesus and prays to Jesus, who the Christian believes is the same God as the Jew's God, then why would anyone care whether the Jew accepts the Jesus aspect of God. Why would God care which process is used by a person to establish a relationship with the same God? It all goes to the same God right? Doesn't the same hold true for other non-Christians? Why would God care how you get there if it all leads to the same place?

This post has been edited by FishOutaWater: Mar 26 2010, 2:03 pm