gotigrz's Christianity topic, part 2 Options

[thefunkyredcaboose]

high school???? i'll be 31 in august. and, if i said that i believe you will go to Hell if you don't turn your beliefs to God instead of away from God it is only because that is what God said.... not, me.

That is what YOU believe God says. Since you can't make that distinction, there is no point in having this discussion.

[Senghe]

Oh I know that, I'm just saying that just because what I believe is closer to the athiest's way of thinking, doesn't mean I don't think a lot of athiests are complete morons.

Ditto.

[gotigrz]

all i can say is that i urge everyone to read mere Christianity by c s lewis. believer or not. i've been a Christian since my early teens and this is hitting on cylinders that have never been hit before. great book.


and, y'all are right... there are idiots and morons on both sides of the spectrum. that is why God is a just God.... He gives EVERYBODY enough knowledge to know Him, and the freedom to choose otherwise.

This post has been edited by gotigrz: Mar 23 2010, 2:04 pm

[Merica]

I wish people who say "it's all a fairytale, it's all bullshit" were given more respect for their view. It's just as, if not more valid than believing in God. Personal opinion.

Also, interesting that it's the same guy who wrote the Narnia stuffs.

[gotigrz]

I wish people who say "it's all a fairytale, it's all bullshit" were given more respect for their view. It's just as, if not more valid than believing in God. Personal opinion.

Also, interesting that it's the same guy who wrote the Narnia stuffs.

those opinions are not given much respect because they(the ones saying "its just a bunch of BS") aren't showing any respect, themselves. it's the same as saying... "so and so SUCKS!!!" when referring to a sports team just cause you don't like them. totally ignoring the fact that maybe that team is actually very good.


and, how is it "more" valid?

This post has been edited by gotigrz: Mar 23 2010, 3:23 pm

[Pokey]

i've been a Christian since my early teens.

this isn't surprising. I have Always found the more hardcore Christians and the ones who want to save other peoples souls to be the ones that find Jesus later in life on their own. The type of person who would read things like what you are saying and go "hey now that makes total and complete sense!!". People who are brought up from a young age with it and have it forced upon them, yet are still believers, I find less likely to try and save me because I think deep down they know how it feels to have this stuff pushed onto you. That's my observations anyways. Born agains or late joiners seem to have that "well I was saved and saw the light so anyone can!" attitude.

[Merica]

those opinions are not given much respect because they(the ones saying "its just a bunch of BS") aren't showing any respect, themselves. it's the same as saying... "so and so SUCKS!!!" when referring to a sports team just cause you don't like them. totally ignoring the fact that maybe that team is actually very good.
and, how is it "more" valid?

It's hard to give respect to something like this though, when I hold such an opinion. Ok, admittedly, wording it as "bull shit" may not be the most respectful way of putting it - but I truely believe it's all made up (can't think of a "nice" way to say it.) I've come to that conclusion after much thought and deliberation. I'm not close minded, I'm not not ignorant etc etc - I, an intelligent man, have come to the decision that God does not exist, and religion is a farse.

In terms of validity, I deem the non-believers opinion more valid because the burden of proof lies with the believer. A somewhat sketchy point, I'll conceed.

[Wambangalang]

God is a just God.... He gives EVERYBODY enough knowledge to know Him, and the freedom to choose otherwise.

lol

I guess all the aborigonal tribes in australia who believed in the dreamtime for 40,000 years are all boiling away in hell now since christianity only came to them 200 years ago. And that reeeeeeeeeeeeeally helped them.

there are people who have never been exposed to christianity. Thank god.

[Wambangalang]

hitchens under the influence of too much single malt and a seriously stupid lady christopher hitchens

people have to check this guy out he's so funny, specially when he takes on fox news retards
hitchens fox news

[gotigrz]

People who are brought up from a young age with it and have it forced upon them, yet are still believers

you say this as if anyone who grew up in church was forced to believe, and therefore, should not believe. yes, i grew up in church, but i think that most people that are true believers don't claim this just because they learned it from an early age. yes, i learned it from an early age, but i truly believe it because i've prayed for God to help me in many occasions and He has... i've prayed to be forgiven for awful sins and literally felt the burden lifted off my shoulders.... i use to worry about health and money. so, i prayed that God would take that worry and stress from my life. i never told my wife that i did that, and one day she said, "you don't seem to be so stressed anymore, lately", .... and, being here, i must be a fan of LIVE, and it honestly bothered me that ed was singing about things that my soul didn't agree with, so i stopped listening and i actually prayed that ed would find Jesus Christ, cause i could tell in his lyrics that he was looking for truth, and i truly believe that he's found it.

it's reasons like those that i believe, not cause i sang "Jesus loves me, this i know..." when i was 4 yrs old.

I find less likely to try and save me because I think deep down they know how it feels to have this stuff pushed onto you.

i totally see what you're saying, but, was you're math teacher "pushing" multiplication tables on you, or was your english teacher "pushing" correct grammar on you? no. i don't believe anyone is "pushing" anything down anyone's throats that they honestly believe to be the TRUTH. so, a sunday school teacher isn't "pushing" anything, they are only teaching what they believe to be the truth.

[gotigrz]

It's hard to give respect to something like this though, when I hold such an opinion. Ok, admittedly, wording it as "bull shit" may not be the most respectful way of putting it - but I truely believe it's all made up (can't think of a "nice" way to say it.) I've come to that conclusion after much thought and deliberation. I'm not close minded, I'm not not ignorant etc etc - I, an intelligent man, have come to the decision that God does not exist, and religion is a farse.

In terms of validity, I deem the non-believers opinion more valid because the burden of proof lies with the believer. A somewhat sketchy point, I'll conceed.

santa claus is made up, the easter bunny is made up, the tooth fairy is made up, etc... all these ARE made up, and yet kids still, to this day, believe. except when they find out on their own or someone tells them the truth. so, if God is just as made up as the tooth fairy, they why are there so many people that believe this to their grave? why is God not obviously a farce to every intelligent grown adult? why are there so many historical writings about God, and so many testimonies of how God has worked in lives, when, by that time, they should know that God is just made up? if God's made up, then why is He still around for so many people? don't say cause it gives them comfort about death... cause if the truth was that when you die.... you die and that's it, i wouldn't have near as much a problem with that as i would spending eternity in Hell. and, that's not to try to scare someone to believing: i don't think you can do that.

[Pokey]

you say this as if anyone who grew up in church was forced to believe, and therefore, should not believe. yes, i grew up in church, but i think that most people that are true believers don't claim this just because they learned it from an early age. yes, i learned it from an early age, but i truly believe it because i've prayed for God to help me in many occasions and He has... i've prayed to be forgiven for awful sins and literally felt the burden lifted off my shoulders.... i use to worry about health and money. so, i prayed that God would take that worry and stress from my life. i never told my wife that i did that, and one day she said, "you don't seem to be so stressed anymore, lately", .... and, being here, i must be a fan of LIVE, and it honestly bothered me that ed was singing about things that my soul didn't agree with, so i stopped listening and i actually prayed that ed would find Jesus Christ, cause i could tell in his lyrics that he was looking for truth, and i truly believe that he's found it.

it's reasons like those that i believe, not cause i sang "Jesus loves me, this i know..." when i was 4 yrs old.

i totally see what you're saying, but, was you're math teacher "pushing" multiplication tables on you, or was your english teacher "pushing" correct grammar on you? no. i don't believe anyone is "pushing" anything down anyone's throats that they honestly believe to be the TRUTH. so, a sunday school teacher isn't "pushing" anything, they are only teaching what they believe to be the truth.

Teaching maths or english is TOTALLY different to teaching religion. maths and english is something anyone and everyone can use, regardless of belief. When I say "pushing" .. I don't mean tied to a chair with eyelids pryed open infront of a bible ala clockwork orange.

If a teacher is trying to tell me that 2 + 2 = 4, I'm not going to go "hmm no, I don't think I choose to believe that". It is what it is and we know thats how the world works. If a teacher from a young age tells you "Jesus died for your sins" ... even you have to admit that isn't as clear cut as a simple maths sum.

From a very young age I was just told "this is how it is with religion, this is right". I wasn't given the chance or the choice in exploring for myself. Children are impressionable so of course for awhile I believed it. Then as I got older and went "hang on ... maybe there are other ways". Now I look at it I just don't think it's right to tell someone "this is how you should live your life and who you should worship as god". People who discover God on their own at a later stage tend to be more of the opinion that they have been saved ... the transition from a bad time in their life maybe to a good one is associated with what they see as finding God. People who are told "you will be a christian" from childhood don't have that, they have less reason to then want to preach at others. Whereas the saved person, or the born again thinks that "wow now that I've been saved, others have to experience what I did!".

That was just my observation .. I think I've been approached by way way more people who tell me that they "found god" later in life, in their teens or later, than people who were brought up as a Christian and never stayed from the path.

As for Live .. I guess we've gone polar opposites ... to me, as Morrissey sings, he says nothing to me about my life. At least when he was questioning, I could relate .. as I've said before I don't claim to know all the answers .. but I know what I don't believe and Christianity is a big part of that, so Ed's new lyrics which relate to it, don't relate to me. But that brings up all sorts of other gripes .. things like his creativity and the way he presents his lyrics. I'd be more inclined to listen if I still found the lyrics at least compelling and interesting ala TDTH ... I'm not all about doom and gloom and dont think that if it aint Freaks of Heropsychodreamer that it's no good. I welcomed TDTH with open arms when it came out and still love it.

Song's like They Stood up for Love are powerful, they deal with the overall power of love, that transends religion and who you worship ... he said it was dedicated to John Lennon, The Buddha, Jesus Christ, Adi Da .. all people who come from different corners spirital rhelm. It was uplifting and such... limiting it to one religion I just don't find as engaging.

[gotigrz]

Teaching maths or english is TOTALLY different to teaching religion. maths and english is something anyone and everyone can use, regardless of belief. When I say "pushing" .. I don't mean tied to a chair with eyelids pryed open infront of a bible ala clockwork orange.

If a teacher is trying to tell me that 2 + 2 = 4, I'm not going to go "hmm no, I don't think I choose to believe that". It is what it is and we know thats how the world works. If a teacher from a young age tells you "Jesus died for your sins" ... even you have to admit that isn't as clear cut as a simple maths sum.

i see your point.

From a very young age I was just told "this is how it is with religion, this is right". I wasn't given the chance or the choice in exploring for myself

now, this is where i disagree. what is a parent suppose to do if they go to church and they have a child? i really want to know what you think i should do with my 2 yr old son while my wife and i attend church.

.Children are impressionable so of course for awhile I believed it. Then as I got older and went "hang on ... maybe there are other ways". Now I look at it I just don't think it's right to tell someone "this is how you should live your life and who you should worship as god"

see, this is where a Christian and a non Christian will never see eye to eye. i don't believe that i've been told "this is how you should live" cause i think knowing what's right and wrong in life is God given and not taught. c s lewis explains this VERY WELL, if you care to read it.

and, as for "this is who you will believe in", to me, that's putting humans before God instead of God before humans. a Christian believes that there is either a God or no God, and if there is a God then there is only one God and that one God created us, not the other way around.

. People who discover God on their own at a later stage tend to be more of the opinion that they have been saved ... the transition from a bad time in their life maybe to a good one is associated with what they see as finding God. People who are told "you will be a christian" from childhood don't have that, they have less reason to then want to preach at others.

well, i guess i would have to fall in the "you will be a Christian" category. but, i find plenty of reasons to "preach", cause even though i grew up in a Christian home doesn't mean that i haven't "found God" just like the lost soul who grew up in other ways. i promise you that there is not one, not a single one Christian out there that is a grown adult who says, "well, that's what i was told when i was a kid, so it must be true". a true Christian will explore their faith and find reason to believe, not just except it as the truth when they're a child and leave it at that. i think all people eventually make up their own mind of whether they believe or not based on what they have explored and found out through their own experiences.

[Pokey]

now, this is where i disagree. what is a parent suppose to do if they go to church and they have a child? i really want to know what you think i should do with my 2 yr old son while my wife and i attend church.

Now see I can't answer that completely as I'd not tell you how to raise your child, that's your thing.

It actually is a hard one to answer as to do so I would have to put myself in the shoes of a practicing christian. I guess I would be as honest about religion as I could with my child ... I'd explain to them whenever I thought they were ready that this is what I believe, but it isn't exactly for everyone. I'd make them aware of other faiths and tell them that if they choose to believe something different, or nothing at all that I would still support them and love them even if we choose different paths ... it's a lot for a child to take in, but then again so is the whole concept of christianity. If they're ready for that, then they're ready for a choice.

I remember getting into big arguments with religious teachers at high school. I remember one going on a big tirade about how gay's wouldn't be welcomed in heaven and how they are wrong and immoral. I sat there thinking "hang on ... you're not preaching love, you're preaching hate".

I just think putting someone on a specific path right from the outset without a semblence of a choice isn't right. That doesn't just go for Christianity but many other religions. Its the same as a child growing up into a life where all they are bound to do is take over the family business. They're bound to just follow in their parents religious footsteps.

Something about that to me just doesn't seem right. The same works with athiest parents. I wouldn't bring a child up going "there is no god!" ... I wouldn't hide that I believe that, but I certainly wouldn't be telling me children that this is what you have to believe.
It's not to say I wouldn't give the child guidence, which is something every parent should be doing .. I'd teach them about loving your fellow man, respecting people's views, being the best you can be ... but I'd leave religious aspects to them.

[gotigrz]

I'd explain to them whenever I thought they were ready that this is what I believe, but it isn't exactly for everyone. I'd make them aware of other faiths and tell them that if they choose to believe something different, or nothing at all that I would still support them and love them even if we choose different paths ... it's a lot for a child to take in, but then again so is the whole concept of christianity. If they're ready for that, then they're ready for a choice.

well, i can't say "it's not for everyone" cause i believe that it is for everyone. i'd have to tell them that i believe it is for everyone, but you have to make up your own mind. but, let me ask you this: even if i said, "you have a choice of believing or not, and if you do, you have a choice of what faith you want to follow"... what is the chance that the kid wont follow in the footsteps of their parents, anyway? this proves that children aren't who they are because of what they're told they are,... they're who they are cause of how they're raised,... not what they're told. there is a big difference there and i hope you can see that. if you tell your kid "don't do that or you're getting a spanking"... and then they do it and you don't spank them... they're gonna know you were full of it.

I remember getting into big arguments with religious teachers at high school. I remember one going on a big tirade about how gay's wouldn't be welcomed in heaven and how they are wrong and immoral. I sat there thinking "hang on ... you're not preaching love, you're preaching hate".

well, you're partially right... what he actually preaching is "judgment". i don't agree with gays either, but i don't agree with a lot of sins that i commit myself. and, in the eyes of humans, sins have degrees... but, in the eyes of God, i believe sin is sin. therefore, i'd be just as guilty for judging a gay person as the gay person is guilty for being gay.

I just think putting someone on a specific path right from the outset without a semblence of a choice isn't right. That doesn't just go for Christianity but many other religions. Its the same as a child growing up into a life where all they are bound to do is take over the family business. They're bound to just follow in their parents religious footsteps.

i see your point. i really do. but, like i said... sooner or later that child WILL become an independent adult, and at that point they will make up their own mind. look at yourself... you were raised to believe, and now you don't. why? God gives EVERYONE free will, and He gave you the free will to think for yourself. i grew up baptist, but i'm now methodist... as far as i can tell the only diff. is one drinks openly and the other hides it.. LOL!!! but, my point is, is that a parent setting a child in one path does not mean that's the path that child will choose... and, that child will choose a path based on the path not the person who put them there. cause if that was the case then free will is gone and you would be a Christian and everyone else would be what their parents were and so on... and that's just not the way it is. and, you know that.

This post has been edited by gotigrz: Mar 24 2010, 10:30 am