gotigrz's - 'Jesus is the only way to heaven' thread, split from "Is Ed... a Christian Again?" Options

[thefunkyredcaboose]

way to skew my words there. there's a big difference in knowing what someone will do and knowing what someone will choose. if you put a bowl of ice cream and a bowl of human feces in front of someone and tell them to choose which one they want to eat. you know they're gonna choose the ice cream... all though they do have the choice to eat the crap. that's kinda the way i see God as knowing what we'll choose with our free will. it may be a poor annology, but it's relevant.

Fine,

If God knows what we are going to choose before we choose then it isn't free will.

That is certainly not skewing your words, I'm not really sure there is as big of a difference between "do" and "choose" anyway, but what does logic matter in this discussion?

[Merica]

But really, if God knows what we're going to do then it isn't free will. Because way before we do something, he already knows, so when we come to do it, we'll do what God "knew"... so we don't have an option. We're always going to do what he knows. There is no choice, no free will.

It's these kind of contradictions that make me doubt it all, to be honest...

[thefunkyredcaboose]

But really, if God knows what we're going to do then it isn't free will. Because way before we do something, he already knows, so when we come to do it, we'll do what God "knew"... so we don't have an option. We're always going to do what he knows. There is no choice, no free will.

It's these kind of contradictions that make me doubt it all, to be honest...

There are definitely ways to resolve this theologically, but they aren't exactly traditional conservative Christian methods.

[gotigrz]

Knowledge of what will happen in the future has nothing to do with determining it.

it's not that God knows what He's gonna have you do... He knows what you're gonna do. i don't know how else to explain this in a way that you and i will both agree on or understand.

This post has been edited by gotigrz: May 15 2009, 12:27 pm

[Merica]

But... if he knows everything we're going to do... that's all we'll do, nothing else because then God would be wrong and everything would explode. He can't be wrong, so what we're going to do is already decided and set in stone in God's mind. If we had free will... then he wouldn't know what we would do, in my opinion.

See, I'm far more likely to believe in a God that simply created shit then sat back and has been watching ever since. A God that knows all and craves people's love and worship is a little.... umm.. dickish, for me.

[thefunkyredcaboose]

Knowledge of what will happen in the future has nothing to do with determining it.

it's not that God knows what He's gonna have you do... He knows what you're gonna do. i don't know how else to explain this in a way that you and i will both agree on or understand.

Yes and that is precisely because your explanation of God makes no damn sense.

Personally, if there is a God then it is such a mystery that no one can even hope to have an idea of what it does/did/will do.

I think all religions point towards the same spiritual nature that runs through humanity. That doesn't mean any sort of spiritual reality exists, but there is no way to prove/disprove that so it is what it is. Some will believe it, others won't. There are some interesting psychological theories about that too, maybe another day.

I think humans invented the afterlife because they are scared to die. Then Hell was invented as the greatest sales pitch for a religion ever. Again, that can't be proved or disproved. But, it can be proved that humanity has had a problem with it's own mortality since the beginning of recorded history.

Religion can inspire people to do great things, and for that reason it can be good. It can also inspire people to kill each other, and for that reason many people hate it. It can also inspire people to be judgmental assholes, and for that reason even more people hate it.

I like the good it can inspire as far as helping others, but it is certainly not the only thing that can inspire that. If people are going to be religious then they may as well do something positive with it. Positive things, like spending all day on a message board.

[thefunkyredcaboose]

See, I'm far more likely to believe in a God that simply created shit then sat back and has been watching ever since. A God that knows all and craves people's love and worship is a little.... umm.. dickish, for me.

You would be in good company with that thought too. John Locke, Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, etc. etc.

This post has been edited by thefunkyredcaboose: May 15 2009, 1:16 pm

[gotigrz]

for me, it's as simple as this. God says he created the world. i believe it. God said he knew me before i was concieved. i believe it. God said that if i accept Him as my lord i will be saved. i believe it. God said that we should trust Him cause He's been where we are going to protect us from our unknowing. i believe it.

maybe God knows of the different outcomes that will happen depending on what we choose. which outcome we come to is up to us. either way... He knows exactly what will happen to us along the way of the path we choose.

[gotigrz]

Yes and that is precisely because your explanation of God makes no damn sense.

or maybe it makes perfect sense... only you don't understand it.





I think humans invented the afterlife because they are scared to die.

dying on earth is still not an easy issue... even for the believer.

But, it can be proved that humanity has had a problem with it's own mortality since the beginning of recorded history.

right, which proves that "inventing" an afterlife isn't gonna make dying easier.

Religion can inspire people to do great things, and for that reason it can be good. It can also inspire people to kill each other, and for that reason many people hate it. It can also inspire people to be judgmental assholes, and for that reason even more people hate it.

once again... you're right. only the term religion isn't based soley on "good". it includes evil also. but, it's not religion that makes people do good or evil... i mean there are plenty of atheist out there that do good and evil everyday. but, to them, they have no religion. so, what's inspiring them do the things they do?

[thefunkyredcaboose]

Yes and that is precisely because your explanation of God makes no damn sense.

or maybe it makes perfect sense... only you don't understand it.

You just told someone with a Masters degree in Religion that they don't understand your basic conservative evangelical theological assumptions. That is a little arrogant don't you think?

You place a lot of stock in "what God said." You haven't studied much about the formation of the Bible have you? I would highly recommend it.

[crazy1]

so, what's inspiring them do the things they do


their upbringing, family, friends, morals, ethics etc......

[gotigrz]

so, what's inspiring them do the things they do
their upbringing, family, friends, morals, ethics etc......

ok, but where did your family and friends get their morals and ethics... and so on, and so on..... eventually it all leads back to God.

[gotigrz]

You just told someone with a Masters degree in Religion that they don't understand your basic conservative evangelical theological assumptions. That is a little arrogant don't you think?

maybe, but, didn't the greatest minds once believe that the earth was flat. and that the atom was the smallest "thing"??? and, they were very very very brilliant people... and, yet, they were wrong.

This post has been edited by gotigrz: May 15 2009, 3:01 pm

[thefunkyredcaboose]

You just told someone with a Masters degree in Religion that they don't understand your basic conservative evangelical theological assumptions. That is a little arrogant don't you think?

maybe, but, didn't the greatest minds once believe that the earth was flat. and that the atom was the smallest "thing"??? and, they were very very very brilliant people... and, yet, they were wrong.

Seriously? That is seriously your argument?

[gotigrz]

i gotta question for any atheist or non believer or whatever....

if you truly don't believe in God, Heaven, or Hell.... then why do you get offended when someone says that if you don't believe in God then you're going to Hell?

i don't believe in aliens... so, if someone told me that unless i start to believe in aliens.. they'll come get my dead body and take me to their dungeon forever... i'd say... "ok, whatever"... and, leave it at that.