It's official: Live are breaking up!!, Hypothetical Discussion Options

[SinfulEyes]

Haven't I been saying this for years?

Hate to sound like Pheezy but he was right about Live's music. There's no creativity now, musically or lyrically.

And come on!!! Telling me it takes 17 years to make that kind of sound and those kind of melodies? Please tell me you are joking....please. Because that ranks up there with some of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard.

All these so called melodies could be put together by the most novice of music writers. There's no chord progression on guitar, no exploratory instrumentals, no bridges, no well....nothing. It was over a half hour of recorded shit meant to appease the ears of what EX said, 9 year old girls. Britney spears fans should have loved it because lyrically, the ideas are the same. Musically, honestly just a bit better that I imagine Brit is capable of if she picked up the guitar.

The only appealing parts are the few parts where Pat shined with his bass. But they drowned that out with production, big surprise!!! If this band wants to be respected at all, they need to get back to their roots. Making music like this one time is bad, continuing to do it is downright fucking embarassing.

[Existentialist]

Agreed with everyone above. I also have no fucking idea what the argument "they couldn't have made it without 17 years of experience" means. I'd just write him off as a new fan with half a brain and move on.

[Trathena]

Somewhere on this board (I think it's in the Outtakes and B-sides thread), I wrote that having finally heard DOAD I can understand SFBM, because this band began as a pop-rock band. They've come full circle. No one responded, so I felt foolish.

I'm vindicated! :-)

And no, I don't understand the "17-year" statement either. I remember when SFBM came out and so many people said, "you just don't like progression." I just figured they didn't really know what "progression" means.

I also heard "They've grown up" as an excuse. I heard that one a lot. Again, I never understood how that could be an argument for SFBM. For TDTH? Absolutely. But not this last one. But these arguments usually come from fans who discovered LIVE with "Heaven." They show up in those Album threads saying things like, "I don't like the term 'bitch' in waitress. The Ed I know doesn't disrespect women." Or, "puke stinks like beer is just stupid." See? They don't really understand the complexity of the lyrics in those earlier albums, so they don't recognize just how pedestrian and simplistic they've become in these later albums.

Sigh. You'd never know I was such a huge fan of this band from these recent posts of mine. Sorry.

[Existentialist]

I think we're long lost twins, Trathena.

[Badman]

"I don't like the term 'bitch' in waitress. The Ed I know doesn't disrespect women."

Lol! I think I said this word for word! I understand how it works in the song but you should never call a woman that even if you think she deserved it. I've seen women disrespected my whole life and I'm not going to perpetuate that. Oh yeah, BoP was the last album I bought... not the 1st

And Exist, I'm sure I'm not the only one who thought that you and Trath may have been the same person. When a person comes from no where to agree with everything you say it makes us suspicious. Although I really think you have better things to do with your time so I know it isn't you.

[Existentialist]

We're not the same person. Nick could verify that if he knew how to turn on a computer...

This post has been edited by Existentialist: Dec 7 2007, 7:42 pm

[Badman]

Heh, probably the meanest thing ever... but imagine if Ed's entire family died in a horrible plane crash. Imagine the songs that would be created! I don't wish that on anyone but it would sure get him going again! We would get a sequel to SS.

[Trathena]

Lol! I think I said this word for word! I understand how it works in the song but you should never call a woman that even if you think she deserved it. I've seen women disrespected my whole life and I'm not going to perpetuate that.

He's not disrespecting her!! God! If anyone is disrespecting anyone it's SHE who disrespected her customers by being a bitch to them! And he's STILL trying to get his date?wife?friend? whoever to leave her a tip. He's MORE than respecting her! It's clear from the song that he's repeating what his friend has called her. In other words, the conversation is going like this:

Friend: "I'm not leaving her a tip; she was a bitch."

Ed: "Ok, maybe she was a bitch, but she got our food here on time and she's cute and she's probably had a sucky day and everyone deserves some fucking change."

Ed's treating her better than she deserves! God! Don't you dare make me explain "Century."

And no one "knows" Ed except his friends and family. And maybe not even them.

I'm not Existential's sock puppet, but I sure enjoy his posts. And, yeah, I kinda did come out of nowhere and just jump in conversations, but I've lurked a long time and I've never been the "introduce myself" kind of poster. I did the same thing on the Traversing board, and a few there said, "Who the hell are you?" :-)

[edstipe]

they need a complete transformation in terms of their public image. They need to re-invent themselves as musicians. like the artist formally known as prince, known now as prince, did.

You're on the right track here, but it's more than this. They need to regain their credibility as artists. That doesn't mean they need to "re-invent" themselves -- rather, it means that they need to win back the respectability that they have lost the last few years.

I see the progression of Live like this:

- DOAD/Mental Jewelry: The band is just discovering themselves. These albums are both "safe" and somewhat amateurish, but the guys are clearly passionate about their music and eager to make a mark on the world. They don't have the skills or experience yet to do anything revolutionary, but their music and passion gain them many fans and some double-takes within the industry.

- Throwing Copper: Their third album is a culmination of the artistic effort and dedication they built momentum with in making their first two records. This is where it all comes together -- creativity, passion, hooks, variety, and a collection of damn fine songs. The album makes the band a lot of money, wins them a lot of acclaim, and finally puts them on the rock and roll map. They are on top of the world.

- Secret Samadhi: The success of Throwing Copper has the band feeling comfortable exploring a darker, more abstract side; the result is an incredibly mysterious, deep record that is undoubtedly the most artistic collection of songs the band has ever put out. However, this also marks a turning point for the band, because although the record hits the top of the charts its first week out, it falls off quickly after that and comes nowhere near the sales of its predecessor. The band realizes that although this is their artistic peak, it's not what the public is going to shell out money for, and they never challenge themselves musically in the same way again.

- The Distance to Here: An attempt to return to the core sounds/style of Throwing Copper, likely in response to the lack of acclaim garnered by SS. Still, these songs are fresh, well-written, creative, and artistic; they reveal the maturity gained by the band over the years. At its core, TDTH is an overall better album than Throwing Copper; it takes a similar approach, but does so in a way that takes the songwriting to a new level, rather than simply regurgitating what has already been done. The result is what many would consider the band's masterpiece. Unfortunately, times and tastes of the public have changed considerably, and although The Dolphin's Cry is a hit, the album once again shows a decline in sales and critical interest.

At this point the band is faced with a critical decision: continue improving upon its core sound and pushing the limit of their abilities, or try something completely different in an attempt to find a new audience that will help put money in their pockets. Then comes:

- V: To me, V is an obvious attempt to make music not for creative/artistic purposes, but for the purpose of trying to appeal to the public's tastes. It's a weird attempt at a mix of club music, rap-rock, and hard rock, combined with only a few tracks (like Overcome) that are actually Live's style. I often wonder what the fuck the band was thinking when they allowed this garbage to be put out. Although they DID have the right perception of the style in terms of what the public taste was, the mistake they made was thinking that they could actually make good music in this style; as a result, the songs were mostly horrendous, the record sold horribly, and it's only mild hit was a consequence of timing (with the 9/11 attacks giving a small bit of attention to Overcome). This was a HUGE turning point -- and a huge step back for the band -- because it marked the first time the band made music that didn't seem to come from their soul.

- Birds of Pray: A second attempt to return to the sounds of Throwing Copper, probably with the realization that rediscovering their old niche is the only possible way for the band to sell a ton of records again. Unfortunately, unlike their previous attempt (TDTH), the passion is gone; the band sounds like it doesn't care enough, and the result is a transparent attempt to regurgitate old sounds without putting much artistic effort into the music. There ARE a few good tracks here, but the album is mostly filler material, and it's obvious that the band is not pushing themselves musically or artistically anymore.

- Songs From Black Mountain: At this point, it seems like the band has lost all of its inspiration and passion. After BoP, the band realizes that people generally don't care about their music anymore, so there's no point in trying to recapture the glory of the past. Instead, they once again try to find a niche in a category that is popular at the time -- adult contemporary pop. The result is a record that sounds like it's trying too hard to be like Matchbox 20; the style completely prohibits the guys from showcasing their talents, and as a consequence, the effort is half-assed and dull. It seems at this point that the band has resigned itself to the idea that they are not going to ever enjoy the success that they once had, and so they settle into mediocrity, content to sell enough records, and play enough shows, to make a decent living. This also comes through in their live shows, where they play uncreative, repetitive setlists and rarely push themselves as musicians in the way they once did.

The obvious question, then, is where does Live go from here? There are two possibilities:

a) Settle deeper into mediocrity, putting out an album every few years that lacks passion and effort; one that enough people will buy to make a profit, but that fails to make a blip on the radar of good music. This is the easiest, most comfortable choice -- especially since families and middle-age have hit the band -- because it doesn't require much risk or effort, and allows them to keep on making music indefinitely.

or

b) Get inspired and start making rock music that is inspired and passionate again. This is more difficult because it requires time, effort, and risk that can make or break the band; if they truly try to recapture their old passion, but fail, then they will have no other choice but to break up and move on to other things. However, if they succeed, the band's rebirth becomes possible, and it will be the first step to regaining credibility from the industry and their fans. One caveat of this choice: it requires a catalyst that will kick the band in the ass and make them realize that there is value in exploring artistry and creativity again, despite the lack of profit that will likely come with the effort.


I like to think I have faith that the band will choose option b at some point, simply because I KNOW that the guys are talented musicians who may still have passion and inspiration left in them. I have confidence that the guys can recover from the last three albums and put out a great record again, but I struggle to understand exactly what it is that is preventing them from doing so.

The good news is that it has been done before, by some of Live's contemporaries. U2, for example, made some terrible records after Achtung Baby (Pop and Zooropa), and lost a lot of credibility as a result, but have obviously come back strong and regained their footing in the music industry.

Similarly, Pearl Jam fell completely off the charts for many years, and recorded two of their worst albums (Riot Act and Binaural) before finding deep inspiration in the urgency of the post-9/11 world and creating a record (Self-Titled) that is beautifully artistic and garnered heaps of respectability by critics, fans, and others bands alike. Soon afterward Eddie Vedder penned one of the greatest movie soundtracks of our time, is nominated for a Grammy as a result, and Pearl Jam is once again highly respected as a whole.

So, the possibility is there. I'm curious to see what happens next.

[Voodoo-Lady]

Heh, probably the meanest thing ever... but imagine if Ed's entire family died in a horrible plane crash. Imagine the songs that would be created! I don't wish that on anyone but it would sure get him going again! We would get a sequel to SS.

You take issue with the word 'bitch' in "Waitress" which tells me you've never actually listened to that tune (thank Trathena for taking the time to enlighten you), but you have no compunction about sharing your own twisted imagination. WTF?!

[Voodoo-Lady]

Pardon the double post, but WELCOME BACK edstipe !! Thank you for contributing some discussion of substance. Your post is worthy of its own thread. You've raised some excellent points, I intend to sit my ass down and consider them, I'll get back in here and share my thoughts accordingly. In the meantime, goddamn its good to hear from you again !

[edstipe]

Pardon the double post, but WELCOME BACK edstipe !! Thank you for contributing some discussion of substance. Your post is worthy of its own thread. You've raised some excellent points, I intend to sit my ass down and consider them, I'll get back in here and share my thoughts accordingly. In the meantime, goddamn its good to hear from you again !

Thanks.

I'd be interested in hearing anybody's thoughts on my points. They have been sitting in my mind for years now.

[Existentialist]

I think that's a pretty good assessment of Live's career. One thing to add would be the involvement of the other band members. Ed's taken control and pretty much written all of the last three albums himself, so perhaps they will get their old sound back when the four of them collaborate on new music. I know that the rest of the band is pretty juiced to be writing with Ed again, and will be doing so for the new music. I think we're all in for a surprise.

[Badman]

He's not disrespecting her!! God! If anyone is disrespecting anyone it's SHE who disrespected her customers by being a bitch to them!

Um, I said, "I understand how it works in the song." You also left out the double meaning on the word "change" because the tip money could change her life or day and Ed thinks she deserves that. You completely missed my meaning in your haste. I personally don't believe in calling women that name. Name calling helps no one.

[SecretInsomnia]

And come on!!! Telling me it takes 17 years to make that kind of sound and those kind of melodies? Please tell me you are joking....please. Because that ranks up there with some of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard.

yeah where talkin about style and, melodies, a band-sound, etc., kid! Mostly all of your post I read ranks up there with some of the dumbest fucking things I've ever heard. But do I talk about that ever? No. So calm the f*ck down a bit.

It's not that SFBM wouldn't be possible technically or whatever in songs built up or things like that, but it's about the feeling, the themes and a sound that makes people that know Live think: hey, that's Live! Not only Ed's voice, but just their way of expressing music.