Wow, Live's newer albums sound like crap...., NOT WHAT YOU THINK Options

[mattdm11]

this has nothing to do with bashing the band, per se....but with the state of cd mastering. submitted for your listening pleasure - two +live+ songs - mirror song, from mental jewelry, and simple creed, from V. i have done nothing to the tracks, except "equalize" them using mp3gain. mirror song was mastered at a decibel level of 92.4, and has minimal clipping (the effect of making the CD "louder", ruining the dynamic range in the process). simple creed was mastered at a staggering 99.9 dB. both have been reduced to a decibel level of 91.5 (technically, the way mp3gain works, mirror song is now 90.9 dB and simple creed is 90.8 - negligible difference). even though there is some clipping on mirror song, listen to how crisp everything sounds compared to the sludge that is simple creed. (as an FYI, simple creed is not even the "loudest" song on V - some tracks are over 100 dB.)

http://download.yousendit.com/A63C51C953CAAA7F (mirror song)

http://download.yousendit.com/8B5162D660812117 (simple creed)

its about time that fans start complaining about the way all these new cds are being mastered....hell, its driving me to vinyl its become so bad. its amazing that CDs recorded 15-20 years ago sound better than what comes out now....all for the sake of the loudness war. take a look at this 2 minute clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ


i stumbled upon this a few months ago, and to be honest, it has somewhat ruined my music listening. its so noticeable now...EVERY new CD is like this. ever wonder why californication sounded so bad? almost every song is over 100 dB - i think one song reaches 102 dB.

im curious as to what you all think.

This post has been edited by mattdm11: May 13 2007, 11:34 pm

[Tina]

That really sucks. Thanks for sharing that. I had no idea.

[Grandpa Grizz]

The mastering of Rush's 2002 album Vapor Trails was really bad. The band made sure their recent release had a dynamic range. Snakes and Arrows sounds great!

[torcatofan]

Very intersting and original topic.

I definitely believe there is more competition for noise than quality of music nowadays.

[Alex]

this has nothing to do with bashing the band, per se....but with the state of cd mastering. submitted for your listening pleasure - two +live+ songs - mirror song, from mental jewelry, and simple creed, from V. i have done nothing to the tracks, except "equalize" them using mp3gain.

I'm assuming you mean normalize? Or you're using 'equalize' as a term meaning 'matching perceived loudness', which it is not...

mirror song was mastered at a decibel level of 92.4, and has minimal clipping (the effect of making the CD "louder", ruining the dynamic range in the process). simple creed was mastered at a staggering 99.9 dB. both have been reduced to a decibel level of 91.5 (technically, the way mp3gain works, mirror song is now 90.9 dB and simple creed is 90.8 - negligible difference). even though there is some clipping on mirror song, listen to how crisp everything sounds compared to the sludge that is simple creed. (as an FYI, simple creed is not even the "loudest" song on V - some tracks are over 100 dB.)

Are you getting these stats from 'mp3 gain?' For one thing, usually amplitude in terms of mastering is represented as a 'negative' number (eg -12), stating the average volume of the track below digital maximum. The stats you're giving don't mean as much (I'm not trying to offend you or anything by the way). Secondly, given the name mp3 gain, I'm assuming your source files are indeed mp3s. NOT a good method of comparing anything audio related. (If you didn't use mp3's, ignore that).

On to mastering... I don't much care for MJ's production anyway (not bad, but certainly not great). And for the most part, I agree with you. The loudness wars are getting worse and worse, and people are afraid to take a stand and master at a quieter volume for fear of not sounding as good to the average consumer, when they first put the disc in. And if it's not that, then it's record companies insisting the cd have that extra couple of dB. Bad time in music to be a mastering engineer...

BUT... recording engineers today mix differently to 10-15 years ago. That clip you posted isn't entirely accurate, because

a) He's compressing an already mastered source. Never sounds good.
b) The mix engineer from 1989 wouldn't have been compensating for the fact that the track would get pumped- different methods are used nowadays to ensure that some of the clarity and attack from the pre-mastered file remain when mastered.

(Plus, normalizing down a track like Simple Creed in a consumer program is probably not the best way to A/B recordings...)

All in all, up to SS, Live recordings were mastered quite nicely (even SS suffers a small amount..). TDTH had fairly good production overall, in terms of the sound... (but too much autotune and compression for my liking). However, the mastering was pushed to a very loud level, resulting in a lot of square waves, and the overall EQ of the album wasn't that nice either.

its about time that fans start complaining about the way all these new cds are being mastered....hell, its driving me to vinyl its become so bad. its amazing that CDs recorded 15-20 years ago sound better than what comes out now....all for the sake of the loudness war.

It is sad, and I agree that it needs to stop. I'm confident that in a decade or so's time, cd's from the last few years will be re-mastered at a quieter level. (exactly the opposite of what's currently happening). But saying old CD's sound better, in the end is quite subjective, as there are a number of other contributing factors to the sound of a cd. There are a lot of producers today doing some amazing mixes, and not ALL cd's from today suffer being pushed to such high levels. In general, the best mastering job's (imo) were taking place during the early to mid- 90's. They were making the most of the digital medium, but still retaining dynamic range.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
i stumbled upon this a few months ago, and to be honest, it has somewhat ruined my music listening. its so noticeable now...EVERY new CD is like this. ever wonder why californication sounded so bad? almost every song is over 100 dB - i think one song reaches 102 dB.

im curious as to what you all think.

Californication sucks production wise overall anyway. You can't entirely blame the mastering.

I'm not sure if this will make much sense, as I've written really quickly so as not to be late for uni.

Best topic in a long time though

[beau99]

The reason the the mastering sucks is because of Chris Lord-Alge.

[Alex]

For fuck sake, it's nothing at all to do with Chris Lord-Alge.

If you're joking, I apologize.

[sellingthdrama]

Interesting! To me, there is a distinct ... well, there are several differences in Live's older and newer albums (let's not go down the obvious road here).

Well, I can say that the newer albums have a much more generic sound to them. The demo you gave reminds me of the 2nd drum solo in Shit Towne - that one electrified me.

[seriakiLLa]

It's scary really how we're totally in the hands of these 'sound engineers' and 'mastering technicians' who obviously caters to the 'if it's loud, then it must be good' crowd.

I wonder why they don't just incorporate level boost circuitry within players to cater to those who want it loud?

[Alex]

Sound Engineers really don't have that much to do with it. And you'll find most mastering engineers hate the loudness wars- it's the bands, and the record companies that push for the levels.