i am no longer a fan of this band Options

[GvB]

Who says this board is closing? I'm confident that it will stay open, as well as the site itself. Just sit tight and things'll be fine, I'm betting.

Tabucky: I hope so.
I have thought about it, but I'm not good enough with computers.
But I keep my fingers crossed that someone takes this board over, now things become slowly nicer again.

Have you ever thought of taking this board over, by the way?

GvB.

[FishOutaWater]

I just listened to Throwing Copper in shuffle mode on my iPod this morning, getting pumped up for the Baltimore concert, and I heard Top and really listened to the lyrics. Now I know that some people here hate Top. But after hearing that song, I just had to revisit this thread. I think Top epitomizes the theme of MJ and TC that we have been discussing here. That is, we should not take truth from those who call themselves leaders. We can't be taught the truth. Especially not by those who wrap themselves in the robes of truth, only disguising the hypocracy underneath. We have the truth inside us waiting to be found, without statues and churches and men in robes. Just look at these lyrics. They are pure genius:

this is not helping me at all
what you are doing here
in the name of God and Love
it's the distribution of fear
pyramids, healing wines, analysts with fame
I haven't got your degree
and I forgot your name


this is not helping me at all
where did we get this plan?
that you could give to me
what I might already have
pyramids, healing wines, a musician's fame
I volunteered you my eyes
I place of facing me

oh Hitler, in a robe of truth
my emptiness has built your altar
and I've worshipped myself in you forever
until now!

I mean, WOW! The liberation in that last line! It's just like the line -- let's get it back together in Operation Spirit.

Selling the Drama, Beauty of Grey, Operation Spirit, Mirror Song, etc., etc... so many songs on these two albums pointing us toward one thing -- that the way to find God and truth and love is to find it ourselves, without the conditioning of our lives, without the past, without the beliefs and rituals and symbols. Just strip ourselves naked of all of these defiling influences and find the truth that is right there and has been there all along.

Shit that is amazing stuff! This is why I love Live! They could literally stuff terds in every cd cover they sell me from now until the day I die and I will still think they are the greatest band ever because of what they have done up until now.

There was another thread around here -- has Live changed your life. My answer is yes. My paradigm has been shifted. I have been exposed to new thought. And I won't be the same. This may sound crazy, but I am liberated from thinking of people and myself and God in terms of what I was taught by those I looked up to. Now I think for myself more than I used to, unobstructed, no longer improsoned by fear, unhindered by conditioning. I have discovered things about spirituality for myself, and within myself, and I see things differently than I used to. I don't think that I would have evolved to that level of independant thinking without taking Live's music to heart.

About Christianity -- I now see Jesus and his message and his essence in a very different way than I used to. And I've seen it in a way that can be integrated and consistent with other spiritual teachers like the Buddha. And I now actually believe that 95% of Christianity and Christians are very un-Christ-like in their actions, beliefs, and practices.

I think "salvation" is not doing good works and believing a set of facts about Jesus are true so that I can get myself into heaven. That's a pretty selfish motivation and a very ego-based framework for spirituality.

I think salvation is the personal transformation to recognize the oneness of all things and the universal love and compassion that connects all things. Loving others as yourself, forgiving, being humble, acting kind and compasionate, not judging -- that is all Jesus ever spoke about. The effort toward salvation involves practicing love and compassion and altruism, not for the sake one's self, but for the sake of all things, because we are all interconnected. we are all one in the image of God. After we realize that we are the same as our neighbor and our enemy, the only natural response is love and compassion. We should love all things and be kind to all things, not so we can get into heaven, but rather so that we act in a way that is true to our nature, that is by selflessly loving God and God's creation.

The "hitler in a robe of truth" once told me that anyone who does not believe that Jesus died so that my sins could be forgiven by God will burn in hell for all eternity -- but God loves them... That doesn't even pass the logic test let alone sound anything like a just and loving God. That is control by using fear. Teaching those things accrues power to the teacher. The emptiness of the flock of blind sheep who follow what they are taught have built those alters of gold. I think that every person has the ability and the obligation to their own spirit to question and consider the truth of the matter for themselves.

[phungi]

It's ok to admit that you don't have the answer to the questions... how did we get here, why are we here, what happens when we die... however, where do you go without this structure?

one option is to question, communicate, think independently, learn, grow... I think that is what the person writing the lyrics is doing... if your chosen deity would frown on that, then you need to consider the message inherent in your chosen religion...

another option is to blindly accept the finite answer (God) to these infinite questions... if you choose this option, then you should enjoy the path that is paved for you... and do it however you like, with or without questioning who laid that path or whether or not there is another path...

personally, I will happily be grooving on life, love, my kids, and music riding this spinning sphere as an evangelical athiest, with little time for such nonsensical worry about intangible constructs that are surely lacking logic or foundation...

[lien]

I just listened to Throwing Copper in shuffle mode on my iPod this morning, getting pumped up for the Baltimore concert, and I heard Top and really listened to the lyrics. Now I know that some people here hate Top. But after hearing that song, I just had to revisit this thread. I think Top epitomizes the theme of MJ and TC that we have been discussing here. That is, we should not take truth from those who call themselves leaders. We can't be taught the truth. Especially not by those who wrap themselves in the robes of truth, only disguising the hypocracy underneath. We have the truth inside us waiting to be found, without statues and churches and men in robes. Just look at these lyrics. They are pure genius:

this is not helping me at all
what you are doing here
in the name of God and Love
it's the distribution of fear
pyramids, healing wines, analysts with fame
I haven't got your degree
and I forgot your name
this is not helping me at all
where did we get this plan?
that you could give to me
what I might already have
pyramids, healing wines, a musician's fame
I volunteered you my eyes
I place of facing me

oh Hitler, in a robe of truth
my emptiness has built your altar
and I've worshipped myself in you forever
until now!

I mean, WOW! The liberation in that last line! It's just like the line -- let's get it back together in Operation Spirit.

Agreed!! I've always loved Top! Never understood how people could hate it so much...

[DesertWater]

[quote name='gotigrz' date='Nov 13 2006, 1:35 pm' post='22667']
you're right.
why? why do you think Jesus would be fine w/ anyone saying....

"Jesus, a man of love and strength,.......... but He doesn't mean anything to me today" - Operation Spirit. i doubt very seriously that Jesus would be "happy" with that statement.

"let me be your saviour" - Saviour for a Day. there's only one saviour.

"the greatest of teachers (Jesus) will leave you there by yourself chained to fate" - I Alone that's just wrong... Jesus never leaves us.

"to Christ: a cross to me: a chair i'll sit and earn the ransom from up here" - selling the drama. Jesus wasn't earning any kind of ransom. He was dying for us.
/quote]

I only read about two pages of this thread before giving up. Everybody has their beliefs, so if she doesn't like Live anymore, so be it. Anyways... the examples you used on the second page were all from DOAD, MJ, and TC, so did you just recently read those lyrics? Why did it take you this long to call it quits with Live? Those songs were released around 12 years ago. If you answered this already, I didnt want to waste my time reading 6 pages of nonsense.

This post has been edited by DesertWater: Nov 15 2006, 6:36 pm

[Deku]

I just listened to Throwing Copper in shuffle mode on my iPod this morning, getting pumped up for the Baltimore concert, and I heard Top and really listened to the lyrics. Now I know that some people here hate Top. But after hearing that song, I just had to revisit this thread. I think Top epitomizes the theme of MJ and TC that we have been discussing here. That is, we should not take truth from those who call themselves leaders. We can't be taught the truth. Especially not by those who wrap themselves in the robes of truth, only disguising the hypocracy underneath. We have the truth inside us waiting to be found, without statues and churches and men in robes. Just look at these lyrics. They are pure genius:

this is not helping me at all
what you are doing here
in the name of God and Love
it's the distribution of fear
pyramids, healing wines, analysts with fame
I haven't got your degree
and I forgot your name
this is not helping me at all
where did we get this plan?
that you could give to me
what I might already have
pyramids, healing wines, a musician's fame
I volunteered you my eyes
I place of facing me

oh Hitler, in a robe of truth
my emptiness has built your altar
and I've worshipped myself in you forever
until now!

I mean, WOW! The liberation in that last line! It's just like the line -- let's get it back together in Operation Spirit.

Selling the Drama, Beauty of Grey, Operation Spirit, Mirror Song, etc., etc... so many songs on these two albums pointing us toward one thing -- that the way to find God and truth and love is to find it ourselves, without the conditioning of our lives, without the past, without the beliefs and rituals and symbols. Just strip ourselves naked of all of these defiling influences and find the truth that is right there and has been there all along.

Shit that is amazing stuff! This is why I love Live! They could literally stuff terds in every cd cover they sell me from now until the day I die and I will still think they are the greatest band ever because of what they have done up until now.

There was another thread around here -- has Live changed your life. My answer is yes. My paradigm has been shifted. I have been exposed to new thought. And I won't be the same. This may sound crazy, but I am liberated from thinking of people and myself and God in terms of what I was taught by those I looked up to. Now I think for myself more than I used to, unobstructed, no longer improsoned by fear, unhindered by conditioning. I have discovered things about spirituality for myself, and within myself, and I see things differently than I used to. I don't think that I would have evolved to that level of independant thinking without taking Live's music to heart.

About Christianity -- I now see Jesus and his message and his essence in a very different way than I used to. And I've seen it in a way that can be integrated and consistent with other spiritual teachers like the Buddha. And I now actually believe that 95% of Christianity and Christians are very un-Christ-like in their actions, beliefs, and practices.

I think "salvation" is not doing good works and believing a set of facts about Jesus are true so that I can get myself into heaven. That's a pretty selfish motivation and a very ego-based framework for spirituality.

I think salvation is the personal transformation to recognize the oneness of all things and the universal love and compassion that connects all things. Loving others as yourself, forgiving, being humble, acting kind and compasionate, not judging -- that is all Jesus ever spoke about. The effort toward salvation involves practicing love and compassion and altruism, not for the sake one's self, but for the sake of all things, because we are all interconnected. we are all one in the image of God. After we realize that we are the same as our neighbor and our enemy, the only natural response is love and compassion. We should love all things and be kind to all things, not so we can get into heaven, but rather so that we act in a way that is true to our nature, that is by selflessly loving God and God's creation.

The "hitler in a robe of truth" once told me that anyone who does not believe that Jesus died so that my sins could be forgiven by God will burn in hell for all eternity -- but God loves them... That doesn't even pass the logic test let alone sound anything like a just and loving God. That is control by using fear. Teaching those things accrues power to the teacher. The emptiness of the flock of blind sheep who follow what they are taught have built those alters of gold. I think that every person has the ability and the obligation to their own spirit to question and consider the truth of the matter for themselves.

Utterly brilliant post - I understand you word for word.

[gotigrz]

ok, first, i want to thank the people that actually took the time to speak their point of view on all of this, and not just say "you Jesus freak, ... get out!". that's not the mentality that I have. but, i have a few more questions:

In the verses (of selling the drama) he sings from the point of view of a person who can be seen and followed as a leader by other people (that leader can be for example a teacher, a preacher or maybe even a president or prime minister) and who likes the power he has too much.

ok, well then, is he not saying that he thinks that Jesus is one of these people that did what they did for power? and in that video, what book is ripping the pages from? bible? ed sure does make it seem so.

which is the infinite love that Jesus, Buddha or Ed even speaks of.

that's fine if they are all talking about the same kind of love, but only one of those guys died for all of mankind to be saved, and only one of those guys was raised from the dead from All Mighty God, whether you believe it or not. but, ed will have you believe that it's best not to just read a book and hear what Someone says but go out and find love for yourself. right? well, let me ask you.... if you take his advice,.... are you not doing what ed is telling you to do? is that not taking advice from one over another?

"I am in NYC today. I visited St. Patrick’s Cathedral. There is a statue inside of the fallen Christ. He is lying in Mary’s arms. There is one just like it in the St. Mary’s Church in York, Pennsylvania where I was baptized and confirmed. Today, I knelt and wept at this beautiful and Sacred monument to the Dying God. I was overwhelmed by a feeling of deep, unfathomable Compassion. I cried and cried and cried. Not a single person looked at me twice. I touched His Blessed Feet, caressed His Wounds, and, in a New York minute, my entire life to this point, passed me by. What is any of this but the Dream of the Christ? Every-Thing surrendered perfectly in Compassion. Good Night and God Bless You all."

that's great! but Christ said that no man shall go to God but through Him. i mean do you think that ed would do the same for a statue of the buddha in Japan? My belief is that i'm sure that the buddha, Jesus and whoever were great great people. but, only Jesus is the Saviour, the Son of God. do you think ed believes that? i really wish that i could speak to ed about this.

The "hitler in a robe of truth" once told me that anyone who does not believe that Jesus died so that my sins could be forgiven by God will burn in hell for all eternity -- but God loves them... That doesn't even pass the logic test let alone sound anything like a just and loving God. That is control by using fear. Teaching those things accrues power to the teacher.

yes, God does love them all,.... everyone. but, do you not love your child, too? your child may do "something" that would or could change your relationship w/ them, forever. but, does that make you stop loving them? no, or atleast i hope not. "Teaching those things accrues power to the teacher".... but, Jesus gave ALL the credit to God, the Father. Jesus never did anything to say..."look at Me". He did it all for us and God.

[FishOutaWater]

I'm afraid that if you see Jesus as having died for the sins of all mankind, and that he actually said that no person can get to the father except through him, and that believing in and accepting Jesus' sacrifice is the sole means to salvation, then there really isn't any point in discussing these matters any more because I don't think that there is anything that anyone can say to offer you a different view of Jesus, without at least an openess to see things differently and at least a small shift in your paradigm. And, likewise, I don't think that you should listen to Live music anymore because, as has been discussed here, many of the lyrics call to the listener to question teachings from religious leaders (i.e. churches) and many of the lyrics express a universal view of love and spirit and spirituality which is in direct conflict with your "there is only one correct path and it is the one that I believe is true" mentality. So, good luck...

[gotigrz]

fish, i want to thank you for you earnest replies. i have already decided not to listen to live anymore. thank you, and good luck.

[Alex]

Hey, just out of curiosity, what other music do you listen to?

[aLIVEinNORWAY]

. Now I know that some people here hate Top.

ARE YOU KIDDING

[aLIVEinNORWAY]

I just listened to Throwing Copper in shuffle mode on my iPod this morning, getting pumped up for the Baltimore concert, and I heard Top and really listened to the lyrics. Now I know that some people here hate Top. But after hearing that song, I just had to revisit this thread. I think Top epitomizes the theme of MJ and TC that we have been discussing here. That is, we should not take truth from those who call themselves leaders. We can't be taught the truth. Especially not by those who wrap themselves in the robes of truth, only disguising the hypocracy underneath. We have the truth inside us waiting to be found, without statues and churches and men in robes. Just look at these lyrics. They are pure genius:

Suddenlyso easy to understand. Great FishOutaWater

[GvB]

ok, first, i want to thank the people that actually took the time to speak their point of view on all of this, and not just say "you Jesus freak, ... get out!". that's not the mentality that I have. but, i have a few more questions:
ok, well then, is he not saying that he thinks that Jesus is one of these people that did what they did for power? and in that video, what book is ripping the pages from? bible? ed sure does make it seem so.

Well, the bible is holy, but in Ed's opinion (and in my opinion too) the sanctity of the bible (and so the sanctity of Jesus and God) is abused by people who keep on telling others how to live because they have read the bible and meanwhile these people don't live that way themselves.
By the way: not every priest or preacher is like that, but there are priests an preachers who are.
And so are a lot of politicians and teachers (but not all).

By the way (note of myself to you): keep in mind that the bible was not written by Jesus himself, or God, it are interpretations of the message written by followers of Jesus.

that's fine if they are all talking about the same kind of love, but only one of those guys died for all of mankind to be saved, and only one of those guys was raised from the dead from All Mighty God, whether you believe it or not.

But you can't deny that Buddha has suffered too from everything he found out during his meditation and the way people treated him.
Although I have to admit that I feel more for Jesus than for Buddha.
That's in the end my choice.
But I respect that there are people who feel more for Buddha.
Buddha is for other people what Jesus is for me.

but, ed will have you believe that it's best not to just read a book and hear what Someone says but go out and find love for yourself. right? well, let me ask you.... if you take his advice,.... are you not doing what ed is telling you to do? is that not taking advice from one over another?

Well, Ed advices me via Live's songs, and it's my choice what I pick up and take and what I don't pick up and take.
And it's my choice what to do with it as much it's your choice what to do with it.
I heard him saying in an interview "Whatever people do with it, it's fine with me."

It's a shame that a lot of clerics from a lot of religions don't give people that freedom.

that's great! but Christ said that no man shall go to God but through Him. i mean do you think that ed would do the same for a statue of the buddha in Japan?

I don't know, but I won't mind if he does.
If Buddha does as much to him as Jesus does to him, than that is what he feels and if he wants to believe in both and if he has found his way to live in as well Jesus as Buddha and is happy with that and if that makes him to write such a beautiful song as he does, then I'm the last one to judge that.
I believe that people should not judge each other for whatever anyway.
Although I have to admit that it's hard for me not to do that, I make my mistakes in that.
I'm afraid a few of them can be read in this forum.

My belief is that i'm sure that the buddha, Jesus and whoever were great great people. but, only Jesus is the Saviour, the Son of God. do you think ed believes that? i really wish that i could speak to ed about this.

I'm not sure.
But the only thing I can say is that in my opinion everybody including Ed, you and me is entitled to think and believe about Jesus what he or she wants.
But I'm sure that Ed has learned a lot for himself in reading about Jesus.
Because you can tell from his lyrics that he did that a lot.
And what he sings about it, speaks to me.

yes, God does love them all,.... everyone. but, do you not love your child, too? your child may do "something" that would or could change your relationship w/ them, forever. but, does that make you stop loving them? no, or atleast i hope not. "Teaching those things accrues power to the teacher".... but, Jesus gave ALL the credit to God, the Father. Jesus never did anything to say..."look at Me". He did it all for us and God.

Sadly not everybody is as full of love as God is. Even not for their children, by the way, I don't have children. But I can understand how much you can love a child, because I'm an aunt.
And not everybody gives the credits to God, like Jesus did.

Sadly there are people in this world who only love children (and teenagers and adults) if they do what these people want them to do and think what these people want them to think.
And some of them abuse religion to firm people (especially children!) the way they want them to become.
A painful discovery, I know.
And that is what Ed kicks against, at least that is how I interpret it.

And yeah, sadly there are parents and children who have so much problems with each other that they don't love each other anymore.

By the way: have you ever noticed how often Ed says thanks to God for offering him the talent to write and sing during interviews?
And how often in interviews and (newer) songs Ed mentions the beauty of what GOD created?

My advice to you is, if you don't have the version of SFBM with the dvd-side, go and get that.
And watch the interview with Ed on it carefully, and think about it again if you want.

GvB.

[gotigrz]

Hey, just out of curiosity, what other music do you listen to?[quote]

i listen to all kinds:

rock, pop, country, a little rap if it has a good beat,.. non of that gangster crap. i have a friend who listens to a bunch of punk rock.... YUCK!!! honestly, i like any song that you can jam on the drums to. i love to play the drums.

[Alex]

Alright then.

I thought you were going, anyway?

Why do people do that? It's like getting angry, hanging up on someone, then calling back straight away.