WWIII, a history lesson Options

[Lis]

imho... us westerners / christians tend to uhm conveniantly forget our own role in this. And untill we do recognize the part we play in this, this will never be resolved. we are so afraid of what we think threathens us, that i feel our own society has come dangerously close to that what we fear, and what they resend...
there is no bigger fear, then fear itself.

[rocknerd]

please explain....as an american and christian, i find this to be over generalized b.s.

and my fear of people has more to do with their indifferent judgement of others.

In revelations thats the last chapter of that big old book, it refrances the Jewish state as the place of final judgement. when peace is achieved a church, temple and a mosk will be built side by side and thats when judgement will begin. it is believed by FUNDERMENTAL christians that this is Israil. as the holly land lies within.
Whoever it also refrances that it is those out side of organised religion that will be saved who find the faith after the reign of 7 years of peace begins. Ironic.
Thats why we as westerners side with Israil. why would we defend a country that bombs civillians and declares war on a country over a handful of rebels.


I fear little however it is the indifferance of mankind that drives me to fight for the rights of everyone. regardless of colour, religion or creed.

[sandkind]

The fact that Israel is the only DEMOCRACY in the middle east probably has a little more to do with U.S. support, as U.S. foreign policy supports democratic government.

Now, about the religious aspect, although the U.S. in general proclaims to be a "Christian" country, the majority are not deeply religious and know little about the prophecies in Revelations.

Propaganda? Your interpretation of Revelations is just that, "your" interpretation. I have never heard your version. Most protestant churches believe the period to which you refer as the Tribulation/Great Tribulation. Most biblical scholars here also believe a "rapture" will occur in which Christians are called up to Heavan. There is much debate as to when/if this rapture will occur, whether prior to the 7 years, in the middle, or even afterwards. Prophecies do indicate one world religion will prevail and mislead the masses, which allows Soloman's Temple to be rebuilt on this Holy Land which is much disputed between current religions. Now, if the Christians are gone and one world religion does come to pass, it would make sense that those led to salvation during this time were not part of the organized religion.

Alas, your knowledge of the Bible seems as limited as your knowledge of history.

How's this for propaganda? Islam and Christianity trace their roots back to Abram, also known as Abraham. Islam through his bastard son Ishmael and Christianity through his son by his wife, Isaac. Does this make Islam a bastard religion?

[rocknerd]

The fact that Israel is the only DEMOCRACY in the middle east probably has a little more to do with U.S. support, as U.S. foreign policy supports democratic government.

Now, about the religious aspect, although the U.S. in general proclaims to be a "Christian" country, the majority are not deeply religious and know little about the prophecies in Revelations.

Propaganda? Your interpretation of Revelations is just that, "your" interpretation. I have never heard your version. Most protestant churches believe the period to which you refer as the Tribulation/Great Tribulation. Most biblical scholars here also believe a "rapture" will occur in which Christians are called up to Heavan. There is much debate as to when/if this rapture will occur, whether prior to the 7 years, in the middle, or even afterwards. Prophecies do indicate one world religion will prevail and mislead the masses, which allows Soloman's Temple to be rebuilt on this Holy Land which is much disputed between current religions. Now, if the Christians are gone and one world religion does come to pass, it would make sense that those led to salvation during this time were not part of the organized religion.

Alas, your knowledge of the Bible seems as limited as your knowledge of history.

How's this for propaganda? Islam and Christianity trace their roots back to Abram, also known as Abraham. Islam through his bastard son Ishmael and Christianity through his son by his wife, Isaac. Does this make Islam a bastard religion?

well doesnt this show your true colours, not that i had any doubt any way. organised religion is the problem with the world. the tribulation is used by common generic christians to look down on those who seem to be with out god.
tell me the preachers who say give God your money and drive around in expensive cars and live in mansions, are they going to be saved, are they the meek.
To answer your question, if we are all children of GOD does that make GOD the bastard father of humanity s/he has no father, not married you get my drift.

and to attack my knoweledge of history is week, i know a great deal about history but i remember that history is written by the victors not by independant observers. I read from as many sources as possible not just right wing fundementalist that believe that their way is the right way.

I was once a christian myself thats where my knoweledge comes from but i turned away because i cant believe in the words of man proclaimed to be that of GOD. Like all things it comes down to interprutation and when it has been translated more times than any other book from its original language it should be taken with a very large grain of salt.

[sandkind]

i am actually very tolerant of other religions, including islam. my comment on bastardization is actually said for amusement. what i am not tolerant of are extremists, such as the rulers of iran who have declared jihad on all non-moslems, not just christians. that would include you unless of course you are a muslim.

true, in the history of christianity, there were the crusades. perhaps we need the pope to declare another crusade again, sarcasm here.

as far as history, i have been most critical of your knowledge of U.S. history. your comments speak for themself, especially concerning Martin Luther King, Jr. you are actually a paradox to me, in that you suggest his peacable means as a weakness. you see, Dr. King wanted people to learn to live together regardless of race or differences. he did not become bitter and believe in being separate. he understood that violence would only beget more violence. yet you seem to condemn those nations who stand up to the evils of the world and strike back. again, you will probably say this is my interpretation, but anyone can see the current powers in Iran are intent on terrorizing the world; there is no reasoning with these extremists. the only thing they understand is violence.

History lesson #2 - just prior to WWI, U.S. forces in the Phillipines were subjected to a number of terrorist attacks by extreme muslims. General Black Jack Pershing captured 50 of the terrorist and tie them to posts for execution. 2 pigs were slaughtered in front of the terrorists and then U.S. troops dipped their ammunition in the pigs' blood and entrails. Now, their belief is that touching anything from a pig would prevent their entering Heaven. 49 of the terrorists were then executed with the ammo, and the 50th was freed. for 42 years afterward, there was not a single muslim terrorist attack. Where is Black Jack when we need him most?

[rocknerd]

General Black Jack sounds like and extrimist to me perhaps you are not as tollerant as you think. in todays society the moment something like that hit the media (about 8 minutes after his action) the scale of attacks on Americans would increase so much you would know what bit your arse until you hit the ground.

My comments on MLK jr are simply this if you want to be equal you must fight, with out the drive you will never obtain it. it is the sacrifice we make for our tomorrow.

[Wambangalang]

U.S. forces in the Phillipines were subjected to a number of terrorist attacks by extreme muslims.

what defines a terrorist attack? The US was in SOME ONE ELSES country, and were attacked by inhabitants of THAT country.....and that makes it terorrism?? But the US being there and blowing shit up....whats that? Justified carnage? Why in 1998 when clinton sent war planes over to Baghdad and demolished the place no one gave a shit about all the iraqi civillians that were murdered, but when some islamic army destroys only two buildings in the US its "the darkest day in history"?? And again, how is killing three thousand people in New York on 9/11 worse than killing one hundred thousand people with A-bombs in Nagasaki and Hiroshima in WW2?

and general black jack needs a labotomy

This post has been edited by Wambangalang: Sep 15 2006, 2:20 am

[rocknerd]

what defines a terrorist attack? The US was in SOME ONE ELSES country, and were attacked by inhabitants of THAT country.....and that makes it terorrism?? But the US being there and blowing shit up....whats that? Justified carnage? Why in 1998 when clinton sent war planes over to Baghdad and demolished the place no one gave a shit about all the iraqi civillians that were murdered, but when some islamic army destroys only two buildings in the US its "the darkest day in history"?? And again, how is killing three thousand people in New York on 9/11 worse than killing one hundred thousand people with A-bombs in Nagasaki and Hiroshima in WW2?

and general black jack needs a labotomy

For once in my short internet life i agree with you. this is a wierd friday

[sandkind]

what defines a terrorist attack? The US was in SOME ONE ELSES country, and were attacked by inhabitants of THAT country.....and that makes it terorrism?? But the US being there and blowing shit up....whats that? Justified carnage? Why in 1998 when clinton sent war planes over to Baghdad and demolished the place no one gave a shit about all the iraqi civillians that were murdered, but when some islamic army destroys only two buildings in the US its "the darkest day in history"?? And again, how is killing three thousand people in New York on 9/11 worse than killing one hundred thousand people with A-bombs in Nagasaki and Hiroshima in WW2?

and general black jack needs a labotomy

sad, sad, sad. again, study your history and you will see why the U.S. was in the Phillipines and the terrorist attacks were not representative of the people, only the extremists. Pershing took the fight to those that attacked them unprovoked. what you fail to consider when you speak of the A-bombs is the MILLIONS of lives that were saved by avoiding an Allied invasion of the Japanese islands.

and your trivializing the attacks on the twin towers shows how ignorant you really are. FFS its really a good thing most Aussies didn't think your way back then or you'd be studying Japanese culture right now. But I guess you have a whitewashed version of that also.

[Wambangalang]

your trivialising the the fact that the US is the only nation on Earth to have used nuclear weapons to murder people yet lecture the world about their danger. And dont patronize me with your insults followed with smilie faces you piece of shit.

[sandkind]

your trivialising the the fact that the US is the only nation on Earth to have used nuclear weapons to murder people yet lecture the world about their danger. And dont patronize me with your insults followed with smilie faces you piece of shit.

[sandkind]

your trivialising the the fact that the US is the only nation on Earth to have used nuclear weapons to murder people yet lecture the world about their danger. And dont patronize me with your insults followed with smilie faces you piece of shit.

and that would be MR. piece of shit to you, sir

[Tabucky]

sad, sad, sad. again, study your history and you will see why the U.S. was in the Phillipines and the terrorist attacks were not representative of the people, only the extremists. Pershing took the fight to those that attacked them unprovoked. what you fail to consider when you speak of the A-bombs is the MILLIONS of lives that were saved by avoiding an Allied invasion of the Japanese islands.

and your trivializing the attacks on the twin towers shows how ignorant you really are. FFS its really a good thing most Aussies didn't think your way back then or you'd be studying Japanese culture right now. But I guess you have a whitewashed version of that also.

Dude, you're an idiot. You just ignored Wambangalang's entire point about the Philippines. How would you like it if a Muslim nation had a military base in the US? Surely a nice group of American bigots would be upset enough to take things into their own hands, organize, and attack such a base. People like you never think about the other side of a story...This goes for the Israel-Palestine issue, too. Just put yourself in the position of someone other than a white, middle-class American for once. I think everyone, liberals and conservatives alike, would benefit from actually considering and hearing out different sides of a story.

[sandkind]

do you even know how we came to be in the phillipines? it was the result of the Spanish-American War. the US purchased them from the Spanish because President McKinley feared Spanish misrule if we simply handed it back to the Spanish. There is the argument that we could have simply left and immediately turned the islands over to self-rule. Of course, it would have also left them with very little defense and a high probability of invasion from aggressive Germany. I will not go into all the different viewpoints, because we chose to stay and allow them to grow before turning their lands over to themselves. Regardless, the US governed the Phillipines in a much better way than the Spanish.

It is easy to make a judgement without being informed. American forces had a great deal of support there. And sorry, I DO have a difficult time understanding Islamic EXTREMESTS point of view. BTW, I have studied Islam and are familiar with the 5 pillars, etc.

[sandkind]

Dude, you're an idiot. You just ignored Wambangalang's entire point about the Philippines. How would you like it if a Muslim nation had a military base in the US? Surely a nice group of American bigots would be upset enough to take things into their own hands, organize, and attack such a base. People like you never think about the other side of a story...This goes for the Israel-Palestine issue, too. Just put yourself in the position of someone other than a white, middle-class American for once. I think everyone, liberals and conservatives alike, would benefit from actually considering and hearing out different sides of a story.

Oh yeah, I am aware of the Israeli-Palestinian issue...I know how Israel came into possession of the West Bank after being attacked for no reason by several Arab countries. Again, I concur with U.S. policy to support the ONLY democratic society in the middle east. I do not agree with everything the U.S. does and do believe our relationship with Saudi Arabia will bite us in the ass.

See, I back up what I believe in with real reasons, not just rhetoric. I have yet to hear solid reasons for his point of view. And I sure as hell do not trivialize dropping A-bombs on Japan, but it was probably the best way to bring the war to a close with the least amount of casualties. An invasion of the Japanese islands would have resulted in many more deaths for BOTH countries and prolonged the war. Not to mention the technology in aircraft they had almost completely finished developing that we didn't EVEN know about. Had the war lasted only a few months longer, they would have had a far superior air force with long range bombers that would have made Australia their first target.

If you as an American believe the attack on the twin towers can be justified in any manner, YOU my friend are the IDIOT!