Pick one album to remove from Live's discography., Only one! Options

[Bob]

Today's bonus tournament songs were from SFBM, which got me to review the album again to see if my not-so-favorable opinion on the album had changed, as I haven't listened to it much after it was released in 2006. Unfortunately, it did not. But then we got The Turn! I know that some don't like it for a myriad of reasons, but I really, really do, and still listen to it quite often.

SO! Here's a question for the masses that feel like answering a fun and light-hearted question on this Memorial Day: If you had the power to remove one album from Live's discography - like it never existed - which would you choose? SFBM or The Turn? Why? I, hands down, choose SFBM.

What about you? Why?

[Voodoo Lady]

Oooh, this is actually hard. I’m deep thinking about it, and getting all analytical, and it’s quite self surprising.

SFBM was pretty bad. Mystery is the only decent song on it, IMO. At the time, I was into American Idol and was rooting for Daughtry that season, so I thought the whole thing of Live being his favorite artist & them performing Mystery on the show together was pretty cool. If I get rid of that album from the discography, then one not-too-bad-of-a-song, and any memories from that time (like American Idol and Līve getting that exposure) are gone. I even appreciate the discussion we can have about how no-good that album is, and that is important to Live’s existence.. even “the bad” is part of/makes them who they are.

The Turn is the better album because it rocks more. SFBM is just not my style. However, and we’ve talked about this a lot, but The Turn should not have been a “Līve” album. They should have made it a side project. The Shinn years were a sad time for me. I wanted to like him, but I just couldn’t. I missed Ed really badly, and constantly prayed and wished for them to reunite. But as I said up there, the bad times make them who they are. Just as our bad times shape and mold us as individuals. Shinn being in the band made me really appreciate the 4 of them back together, creating, and touring (even though I haven’t agreed with many of their decisions since the reunion).

Hmm... so which one do I get rid of?? Gah! So hard!! I’ll remove SFBM. At the beginning, I was leaning toward The Turn, but thinking about it made me change my mind. I’ll sacrifice Mystery and the AI appearance. I’d rather have the reunion, the memories (Ed and Chad T. dancing in that radio station with Zoe what’s her name!), the excitement of predicting the reunion and that being validated, the two tours after the reunion, etc. Keep The Turn, and thank you Chris Shinn (even though I seriously dislike you).

[Bob]

I'm choosing SFBM as well, but for completely different reasons.

When V came out, it was the first black mark I gave the band since I became a fan in 1996. They had a fantastic run of four solid albums, then V just mucked up the works, though we did get Simple Creed, Deep Enough (caveat: the live version is hands down better than the album version), and The Ride out of it.

They came back with BOP, which I adored, but then SFBM felt like they took all the "meh" songs from V that didn't make it and made an album full of them. The whole Mystery/AI thing just put me over the edge into "no thank you" territory. I don't think Live got any new fans from that brief 3 minutes of exposure, but who knows. I'd love to hear from them if they are on this board.

Then Ed leaves, Shinn arrives, The Turn comes along, and they sound and look revitalized. New rockin' songs. New rockin' singer that they've known for years that creates songs with deep, meaningful lyrics. There's heart and soul there. They looked happy onstage. They rocked the shit out of old and new songs. For the first time since 2000, I felt like *my* Live was back. Then in what feels like an instant, Shinn is gone, Ed is back, we eventually get Local 717, and it feels like we're back in 2006 again, and once more, I question their songwriting and musicianship. Oh my. I think I dislike 717 more than SFBM, and that's saying something.

So, if SFBM is removed from their discography, perhaps after Ed leaves he doesn't come back as he's got a blossoming solo career with Zak, Live still has Shinn, and instead of Local 717 with Ed, we get an EP with Shinn and we're currently waiting for a full album. I'd be OK with that.

Alternately, after Shinn leaves, Live goes on the hunt for a new lead singer and continues to this day with that new frontman.

Alternate take 2: The Gracious Few explodes, and each album has a new singer. TGF1 had Kevin Martin, TGF2 was with Chris Shinn, and TGF3 is currently in the works. Perhaps CCP pulls a Tool and all the music is done and they're currently auditioning new singers.

All of this leads me to say that I really hope Live's next album has more meat to it like The Turn had, and less filler like SFBM had.

This post has been edited by Bob: May 25 2020, 11:26 pm

[san_sao]

I couldn't really remove either of them. I just hope they figure it out and give us something good for the next record.

This post has been edited by san_sao: May 25 2020, 11:50 pm

[Voodoo Lady]

I'm choosing SFBM as well, but for completely different reasons.

When V came out, it was the first black mark I gave the band since I became a fan in 1996. They had a fantastic run of four solid albums, then V just mucked up the works, though we did get Simple Creed, Deep Enough (caveat: the live version is hands down better than the album version), and The Ride out of it.

They came back with BOP, which I adored, but then SFBM felt like they took all the "meh" songs from V that didn't make it and made an album full of them. The whole Mystery/AI thing just put me over the edge into "no thank you" territory. I don't think Live got any new fans from that brief 3 minutes of exposure, but who knows. I'd love to hear from them if they are on this board.

Then Ed leaves, Shinn arrives, The Turn comes along, and they sound and look revitalized. New rockin' songs. New rockin' singer that they've known for years that creates songs with deep, meaningful lyrics. There's heart and soul there. They looked happy onstage. They rocked the shit out of old and new songs. For the first time since 2000, I felt like *my* Live was back. Then in what feels like an instant, Shinn is gone, Ed is back, we eventually get Local 717, and it feels like we're back in 2006 again, and once more, I question their songwriting and musicianship. Oh my. I think I dislike 717 more than SFBM, and that's saying something.

So, if SFBM is removed from their discography, perhaps after Ed leaves he doesn't come back as he's got a blossoming solo career with Zak, Live still has Shinn, and instead of Local 717 with Ed, we get an EP with Shinn and we're currently waiting for a full album. I'd be OK with that.

Alternately, after Shinn leaves, Live goes on the hunt for a new lead singer and continues to this day with that new frontman.

Alternate take 2: The Gracious Few explodes, and each album has a new singer. TGF1 had Kevin Martin, TGF2 was with Chris Shinn, and TGF3 is currently in the works. Perhaps CCP pulls a Tool and all the music is done and they're currently auditioning new singers.

All of this leads me to say that I really hope Live's next album has more meat to it like The Turn had, and less filler like SFBM had.

Music is so subjective. While I don’t agree with some of your opinions and scenarios, especially this one, I would NOT be ok with:

So, if SFBM is removed from their discography, perhaps after Ed leaves he doesn't come back as he's got a blossoming solo career with Zak, Live still has Shinn, and instead of Local 717 with Ed, we get an EP with Shinn and we're currently waiting for a full album. I'd be OK with that.

I respect, and enjoy reading your takes on it all. I am with you 100%, in the hope that their new album has more meat and less filler.

Funny that we considered the time manipulation with simply removing an album from a discography.

[SJN1279]

In my opinion:

Songs from Black Mountain should have been Ed's first solo album.

The Turn should have been a CCP side project and not Live.

This post has been edited by SJN1279: May 26 2020, 8:59 am

[Merica]

If we're simply removing the worst album then obviously it's SFBM. If we're actively trying to alter the course of history then it's still SFBM. The Turn was exactly what we wanted, needed and downright deserved at the time. You can't just remove it. *turns to camera*

Thing is though, I dunno what removing SFBM does for the direction of the band. They were still a few albums past it by that point. They were still headed in the wrong direction.

In my opinion:

Songs from Black Mountain should have been Ed's first solo album.

The Turn should have been a CCP side project and not Live.

I can respect that opinion, and perhaps it's the answer to the above. i.e. instead of SFBM being a Live album, a more amicable parting of the ways happens with Ed who starts his solo career with SFBM. Meanwhile, CCP bring the goods with TGF.

That said, it'd have to be a proper breakup or else you probably don't get The Turn, because The Turn is such a Live album that they wouldn't make it with someone else if they were still in the band with Ed. You see what I'm saying? So I dunno.

How about things work out exactly as they have done except they don't bury The Turn?

Yeah that'll do. I won't remove one. I'll bloody add one back.

[Hoodstock]

I'd have to go with V. It was never meant to be an album and was pushed for release by the record company.

I think this album was a huge downward moment for the band that they never recovered from. There was no real radio support for the album, they lost many casual fans because of how weird the music was, and afterwards it was all downhill. I think a lot of what occurred afterward can be attributed to the fall from grace because of V.

Now I do love SC and TYL from this album. I wish they would have pushed back against MCA, released the songs for free as Ecstatic Fanatic that they wanted too, and developed a proper album like they intended. We'll never know what that album would have sounded like or what it would have done for the band.

Had the proper album been developed BOP and SFBM may not even had existed.

This post has been edited by Hoodstock: May 26 2020, 1:15 pm

[Bob]

How about things work out exactly as they have done except they don't bury The Turn?

Yeah that'll do. I won't remove one. I'll bloody add one back.

Live is essentially burying anything that's not part of their hits repertoire, so even if they don't officially bury The Turn, they've essentially buried it. Have we gotten anything from 717 in the last few tours? How about Hold Me Up? Nope.

I wonder what some of The Turn songs would sound like with Ed behind the mic. At the same time, those words are Chris's, not Ed's, so I don't know how powerful they'd be.

Holy crap. I think I now understand why some people were upset with Chris singing Ed's words. I guess that goes for any replacement singer in a band. Good food for thought.

[Bob]

I'd have to go with V. It was never meant to be an album and was pushed for release by the record company.

I think this album was a huge downward moment for the band that they never recovered from. There was no real radio support for the album, they lost many casual fans because of how weird the music was, and afterwards it was all downhill. I think a lot of what occurred afterward can be attributed to the fall from grace because of V.

Now I do love SC and TYL from this album. I wish they would have pushed back against MCA, released the songs for free as Ecstatic Fanatic that they wanted too, and developed a proper album like they intended. We'll never know what that album would have sounded like or what it would have done for the band.

Had the proper album been developed BOP and SFBM may not even had existed.

This is a really good point, but this also sticks in my craw, because if V was never meant to be an album, then why did they record all 14 songs? That must have cost them tens of thousands of dollars and months of time, and if they didn't like it, why did anything from it see the light of day? Why didn't they kill them all and start over while recording - or even demoing - them?

I think I'd have taken it easier on them had V been an EP that had Simple Creed, Deep Enough, FMNBLE, Overcome and The Ride on it.

CT said "The goal was to prepare songs for the next studio session. MCA got a hold of the material and pushed us to call it an album." Then he says they were going to be released for free, for the fans? That sounds like he's talking out of both sides of his mouth. Basically "we're going to release them to our hardcore fans for free", but they are mostly mediocre songs. I don't know how I feel about that. Also, it came out anyway, so the fans got it regardless.

You want to give the fans something special? How about release the songs from TDTH that never officially saw the light of day. Those tracks were (and still are) amazeballs. If V was the cutting room floor songs and alt versions from the TDTH sessions, I'd have been beside myself.

Also, two songs from V were used in huge movies (Deep Enough in Fast and the Furious, and FMNBLE in The Mummy Returns). Pretty good exposure there.

The history behind V is suspect for me, but your points are solid, Hoodstock.

Also, BOP is the album they wanted to make after V, so we kinda have our answer already. Look at where the musicianship was going around TDTH. BOP definitely has some ties to what TDTH started, even if we got a V in-between.

[Hoodstock]

This is a really good point, but this also sticks in my craw, because if V was never meant to be an album, then why did they record all 14 songs?

Same reason they recorded any B-side or other song that they never released.

This post has been edited by Hoodstock: May 26 2020, 5:48 pm

[Hoodstock]

Also, BOP is the album they wanted to make after V, so we kinda have our answer already. Look at where the musicianship was going around TDTH. BOP definitely has some ties to what TDTH started, even if we got a V in-between.

Not really, because a song like Simple Creed may have continued to develop and may have been the foundation for BOP. It may have had Heaven, but it could have been completely different.

[Bremang]

Also, BOP is the album they wanted to make after V

not really what ccp wanted

[Ecstatic Fanatic]

not really what ccp wanted

At least they claim that now.

It’s easy to disown an album after it flops and CCP have engaged in revisionist history in the past. I recall some threads during SFBM time when CT was quoted as saying this was Live’s new sound and they were all in on it (paraphrasing). Now the albums ignored.

BOP and SFBM were an attempt to be relevant again by being poppy that didn’t work. Call it for what it is and move on. Take the songs you like and ignore the ones you don’t. Whether it was all Ed or a joint effort, they all agrees to put the Live brand in it at the time.

[alexou]

I really hesitate between 2 albums, but because of the overall bad quality and the lack of great songs I'll throw SFBM out.

I was working part time in an arena and I could finally listen to Heaven on the Saturday morning after downloading it from the job's computer, you know when it was still taking a zillion time to download. God I was disappointed. I mean, I know The River wasn't going to be a rock song, but we could still have expectations for Heaven. Ouch. Good pop song, nothing more. It was the end. With V we could even argue they were trying to fit the rock/rap thing. What were they trying to do with Heaven? Way too safe for me. Lakini's Juice was released 6 years before that, think about it.

BOP is generic with plenty of meh songs (Heaven, Sanctity of dreams, Run away, Life marches on, EISYF, rivertown, Bring the people together, WAWFF). It makes alot of them. But they are still far superior than the meh ones from SFBM. I can stand some of the above, (maybe just not Run away and BTPT), but I just can't listen to the bad ones from SFBM.

Plus, SFBM is so badly produced. Ed sings with the tongue between his teeth or whatever on some of them and there's no instrumentation effort. The lack of musicianship/(evolution of it through the years) of the guys tricked them along the way. They had other priorities and we can hear it.