Hold Me Up (studio) Options

[ThrowgnCpr]

I gotta say, best i've heard it sound, great job...all i used was noise reduction. You really brought out the sound, excellent! Beats the hell out of my version, .

Thanks. I typically adjust things through several steps to clean artifacts and then coax out some more dynamics and punch: spectral cleaning, light EQ, passes through a couple different compressors, etc.

Here is Susquehanna: http://bit.ly/2sFghRG

[andymbj]

hey you guys are hilarious with all the attempts at redoing Spew.

Some of them sound good, but why don't you wait and let the experts remaster and release it

good day.

Yeah. Fans trying to improve a recording of a song they've been waiting over twenty years for is some knee-slapping stuff. Must be nice to look down on all us plebs in judgement. Tosser.

[Bremang]

First, that "early demo" had terrible MP3 compression. MP3 algorithms in the 90s were terrible, and when low bitrates were used, they destroyed a lot of the high-end stuff.

Second, Jerry Harrison produced the album, he didn't engineer (that was Lou Giordano), mix (that was Tom Lord-Alge) or even master (that was Ted Jensen) it. Jerry's role was essentially that of a director and coach. It's still a very important role, but he had little effect on the quality and tone of the snare drum sound...

Ah, good to know.

In your experience are you thinking that the soundcloud clip posted earlier has differences that are a result of frequency lost in mp3 conversion, combined with a distorting tape transfer? I never would have expected that. Would the reverb on the snare be wiped away so much? Also the symbols are more to the left in the new recording. The symbols stay dead center in the older mp3. I am not sure how these methods would get rid of sounds coming out of the left like that, and remove the reverb entirely.

But maybe the media five tracks are not the finished version. The media five hold me up is still slower than the zack and miri version. But maybe the tape transfer slowed the track down. At least we know Live are doing anniversary reissues now. Throwing Copper 25th anniversary reissue in 2019/2020, we may finally get the track.

This post has been edited by Bremang: Jun 17 2017, 10:27 pm

[ThrowgnCpr]

Ah, good to know.

In your experience are you thinking that the soundcloud clip posted earlier has differences that are a result of frequency lost in mp3 conversion, combined with a distorting tape transfer? I never would have expected that. Would the reverb on the snare be wiped away so much? Also the symbols are more to the left in the new recording. The symbols stay dead center in the older mp3. I am not sure how these methods would get rid of sounds coming out of the left like that, and remove the reverb entirely.

But maybe the media five tracks are not the finished version. The media five hold me up is still slower than the zack and miri version. But maybe the tape transfer slowed the track down. At least we know Live are doing anniversary reissues now. Throwing Copper 25th anniversary reissue in 2019/2020, we may finally get the track.

I am still fairly certain that all the versions we have heard of Hold Me Up have been of the same take/recording. And the differences we are hearing are the result of a combination of factors including source format and generation, transfer process, and finally, delivery format compression.

First, let's consider what the recording was transferred from. Media Five probably received a first-generation copy of a 1/4" reel tape of the mix. That would have been the highest quality source format to transfer. Now, who knows how many times that tape had been played and how it was stored. They certainly weren't the original owners. My guess is that it was given to them recently. Over time, it could have stretched from excessive playback, or become brittle from poor storage conditions. A stretched tape could account for some of the duration discrepancies.

Most songs "leak" from studio sessions on a cassette tape. Cassettes of mixes were often run off for band members and studio staff as a way to assess progress. Sometimes copies were made from friends, or staff made copies without the expressed permission of the studio/band. Those tapes are copied, passed around, and around and around. Previous MP3s may have been sourced from multi-generation cassette tapes, which would have resulted in a big drop in fidelity. If you've ever made copies of cassette or VHS tapes, you know how the quality can drop, and [music] information gets lost.

The transfer process can play a role too. Assuming Media Five has high end archival equipment, I doubt that played much of a role in degrading the new transfer, but it probably factors in to a small extent, especially if we compare it to whatever hardware was used to transfer the old MP3s.

The stereo separation would have been affected by the source format and transfer process. That a lot of the sounds are dead center in the older version is no surprise. That could have resulted in the downgrade from 1/4" reel to cassette, it could have happened in the digitization process, and it could have happened in the delivery format compression. The latter plays a big role in many of the differences we've been debating.

MP3 debuted to the public as a consumer format in the early-90s. It is a lossy compression codec based on perceptual coding or psychoacoustic models. Essentially, the algorithm discards some data and reduces audio information that is least crucial to perception. It drops things like harmonics, reduces the frequency range, and truncates and simplifies sounds. Things like cymbal quality and reverb are the first to go. The early generation MP3 coding algorithms were pretty crude compared to the algorithms in use today. I think the most recent versions are less than 10-years old. Anyway, lossy encoding in general is a pretty brute way of reducing the file sizes, but those early generation MP3 algorithms were pretty crummy. They really reduced the information in the high and low frequencies, which greatly affected the quality of the cymbal sounds and in general made the songs sound muddy and glitchy. The latest MP3 algorithms when used well can actually do a pretty good job.

Lossless compression on the other hand seeks to reduce the file size not be removing data, but by simplifying how that data is stored. Think of a FLAC file as a playable .zip archive. None of the music data is changed, but its just stored differently.

In summary, I believe a combination of all of those things above account for the differences between the older MP3s and this most recent version. I'd go as far as to say that the short clip we hear on Zack and Miri is even the same exact recording. So much of the performance sounds identical to me. The difference is that the Zack and Miri version probably had a final mix from the individual source files (each instrument) and a proper master. And given the tonal quality of this recording, I've no doubt that it was recorded during the same final sessions for the Throwing Copper album. That alone could also explain why we haven't received it yet. The label would have owned it, which was Radioactive--an imprint of MCA that doesn't exist anymore. I don't know much about who owns all the rights to Radioactive's recordings now, but I would guess that it's complicated, and unreleased recordings on paid recording sessions for albums is never clear cut

[throwing_cheetahs]

I've no doubt that it was recorded during the same final sessions for the Throwing Copper album. That alone could also explain why we haven't received it yet. The label would have owned it, which was Radioactive--an imprint of MCA that doesn't exist anymore. I don't know much about who owns all the rights to Radioactive's recordings now, but I would guess that it's complicated, and unreleased recordings on paid recording sessions for albums is never clear cut

Very informative stuff! I have always wondered why it was such an issue to release 'Hold Me Up' or 'Spew'. Okay, the song just lays dormant for decades (we're into the 3rd decade now), well, except a bit of it plays in a film. I don't see why the owners of the song would not release it on cd in mastered form and make money off of it. It should be so simple, i mean, a movie director was able to get the rights to use it, but the original creators of the song (Live) have not. It seems that Live has not wanted to release it for some reason, or the owner of the song is just stubborn, it really is a weird situation.

[ThrowgnCpr]

Very informative stuff! I have always wondered why it was such an issue to release 'Hold Me Up' or 'Spew'. Okay, the song just lays dormant for decades (we're into the 3rd decade now), well, except a bit of it plays in a film. I don't see why the owners of the song would not release it on cd in mastered form and make money off of it. It should be so simple, i mean, a movie director was able to get the rights to use it, but the original creators of the song (Live) have not. It seems that Live has not wanted to release it for some reason, or the owner of the song is just stubborn, it really is a weird situation.

I don't know that we'll ever get a clear understanding of what was intended with that song! From what Kevin Smith has said, it appears as though Radioactive really wanted to include it on an official release from the band. Kevin wanted it for Mallrats, but the label said they were holding onto it for the next album. I would guess that didn't really align with where the band was heading sonically. It's a great song, no doubt about that, but it would sound out of place on Secret Samadhi. They were smart not to shoehorn it in there.

Kevin was working on a longer cut of the film for a DVD re-release of Mallrats a couple years later and reapproached the label about using Hold Me Up. He claims they again turned him down because they wanted to include it on a greatest hits album. He tried again for Jay and Silent Bob and got the same answer. The greatest hits album (Awake) came out a few years after that, and I have no idea why they only included We Deal In Dreams, and not Hold Me Up. My only guess is rights debates. Like I said, unreleased songs recorded on paid time for an album's recording session can be a tricky mess. We Deal In Dreams may have been recorded outside of an album session and may have been easier to get through red tape.

We'll probably never know. The best we can hope for is that they do a deluxe anniversary edition of Throwing Copper, similar to what they claim is coming out for Mental Jewelry. It should be much easier to include the song on that. Whatever happens with Mental Jewelry should be very telling regarding the future of Hold Me Up.

[Merica]

Yeah, lol at the idea of waiting around for them to release a better version of Hold Me Up.

Clearly nothing wrong with fans going ahead and having fun with what we have.

[throwing_cheetahs]

Whatever happens with Mental Jewelry should be very telling regarding the future of Hold Me Up.

I still think they are going to include "Negation" and "Heaven Wore a Shirt" on the MJ re-release, and we know the 1992 show at the Roxy is going to be on there. I really hope i am wrong about Negation and Heaven Wore a Shirt. I would love to hear a song(s) we have never heard instead, obviously!

[ThrowgnCpr]

I still think they are going to include "Negation" and "Heaven Wore a Shirt" on the MJ re-release, and we know the 1992 show at the Roxy is going to be on there. I really hope i am wrong about Negation and Heaven Wore a Shirt. I would love to hear a song(s) we have never heard instead, obviously!

I think you are probably right. We can always hope for something else though

[san_sao]

I think you are probably right. We can always hope for something else though

I'm sure we'll get Born Branded as well. Something we haven't heard will surprise me.

[SecretInsomnia]

I think you are probably right. We can always hope for something else though

But both spongs were officially released before, right?

[ThrowgnCpr]

But both spongs were officially released before, right?

yes, of course. They were released on Four Songs and the Operation Spirit 12". This is just us being pessimistic... Let's hope its something else.

[throwing_cheetahs]

Here's a question for everyone - If +Live+ does eventually release 'Hold Me Up' officially, will it be called 'Hold Me Up' or 'Spew'? I believe the real title is Spew (at least in the beginning) and then it was called 'Lift Me Up', which was probably named by a fan since they didn't know the real title. I think they go with 'Hold Me Up', which is probably a no-brainer since it is known by the majority as such.

This post has been edited by throwing_cheetahs: Jun 19 2017, 2:42 pm

[ThrowgnCpr]

It's credited as "Hold Me Up" on Zack and Miri Make a Porno. I'm sure they'll go with that name.

[throwing_cheetahs]

It's credited as "Hold Me Up" on Zack and Miri Make a Porno. I'm sure they'll go with that name.

Didn't know that, but i am sure they go with Hold Me Up also. Well, Grandfalloon (maybe Chad T.) mentioned Spew, so it just made me think.

hey you guys are hilarious with all the attempts at redoing Spew.

This post has been edited by throwing_cheetahs: Jun 19 2017, 3:12 pm