How much did Ed contribute to Live?, Thread #42 Options

[Jim]

I'm not trying to ask some "Gotcha!" type question to make you accidentily say you hate Ed or something. I just don't understand how any of us can claim to know anything about the "work" of being in a band at the level of Live. I'm not even in a shitty band. I can't even play the guitar I bought a few years ago. I have no idea about the type of work that goes into making music. Do you?

[themaestro]

I'm not trying to ask some "Gotcha!" type question to make you accidentily say you hate Ed or something. I just don't understand how any of us can claim to know anything about the "work" of being in a band at the level of Live. I'm not even in a shitty band. I can't even play the guitar I bought a few years ago. I have no idea about the type of work that goes into making music. Do you?

There were plenty of people who were around here that had all sorts of insightful info. What's left is a few stragglers and Nickepedia. Funky cleared up this whole argument a while back. Nick knows this. But now that the thread is either buried here or deleted he can say whatever he wants. At least I remember that he was put in his place by someone with vast music experience and had nothing to say in reply.

[Bremang]

Quit making asinine comments like Ed did the bulk of the work then. Each contributed equally to their success until the contributions of the others were rejected by Ed.

How do you quantify that everyone contributed equally to the success?

[Bremang]

Can't really blame the decline of Live's music based on Ed taking control cause I don't think CCP could have saved Ed's songwriting - listen to Believe...its more likely based on your opinion of whether Ed simply lost his talent, which you can't really blame someone for, they tend to not control these things getting older.

Can't really blame Ed or CCP for musical differences...to each their own...Ed and CCP didn't raise their voice while they were working together...both are at fault for not working it out. Can't blame either of them for choosing their musical path, they both have fans that prefer things Ed style or CCP style.

it seems feasible to dislike Ed's personality if he cheated the guys out money, which is still up for debate.

[themaestro]

Can't really blame the decline of Live's music based on Ed taking control cause I don't think CCP could have saved Ed's songwriting - listen to Believe...its more likely based on your opinion of whether Ed simply lost his talent, which you can't really blame someone for, they tend to not control these things getting older.

Can't really blame Ed or CCP for musical differences...to each their own...Ed and CCP didn't raise their voice while they were working together...both are at fault for not working it out. Can't blame either of them for choosing their musical path, they both have fans that prefer things Ed style or CCP style.

it seems feasible to dislike Ed's personality if he cheated the guys out money, which is still up for debate.

Not "blaming" Ed just acknowledging that he did in fact shut them out. Then it becomes a question of what influence they had on Ed. If you believe your environment and those around you have any affect on you, especially if you openly interact and experience life with them and through them. I believe it has a profound effect, especially as a young adult shaping one's world views. I believe that Ed had a certain talent that is still there to a good degree. Although I don't prefer his current style he can still sing and compose good music. No doubt he has taken a different path and that is fine. Just saying that is the biggest reason for the difference in his music now, not loss of talent.

[themaestro]

How do you quantify that everyone contributed equally to the success?

What do you want, a nice spreadsheet with some pie charts and intricate formulas? There is no way to quantify it other than to experience it. The music that moved everyone so much did so for a reason. This was a brotherhood, a band where each had 100 % freedom to express themselves in every way and an environment of love and support for one another. They set out to conquer the world together and they did a damn fine job. Sorry if you didn't get to experience some of that when it was happening. It was magical and they all contributed equally to that.

[Bremang]

What do you want, a nice spreadsheet with some pie charts and intricate formulas? There is no way to quantify it other than to experience it. The music that moved everyone so much did so for a reason. This was a brotherhood, a band where each had 100 % freedom to express themselves in every way and an environment of love and support for one another. They set out to conquer the world together and they did a damn fine job. Sorry if you didn't get to experience some of that when it was happening. It was magical and they all contributed equally to that.

I definitely experienced that from the early 90's on. Not sure how any of that explains how everyone contribute 25% like you said but sounds nice.

[Bremang]

Not "blaming" Ed just acknowledging that he did in fact shut them out.

Sounded to me like you were blaming him here:

Each contributed equally to their success until the contributions of the others were rejected by Ed. It's no coincidence that everything changed when that started happening.

[themaestro]

I definitely experienced that from the early 90's on. Not sure how any of that explains how everyone contribute 25% like you said but sounds nice.

The whole is greater than the sum of its parts. This was the case of Live at their peak. It's unexplainable and thus most equitable to give equal credit.

[themaestro]

Sounded to me like you were blaming him here:

Not blame, proof that one is not greater than the whole.

This post has been edited by themaestro: Apr 14 2013, 6:08 am

[themaestro]

Not blame, proof that one is not greater than the whole.

Or more correctly, proof in fact that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts with Live. Looking forward to further confirmation of this with new music and CS at the helm.

[Bremang]

Or more correctly, proof in fact that the whole is greater than the sum of the parts with Live. Looking forward to further confirmation of this with new music and CS at the helm.

Just listen to Believe. That's the collarborative effort we were going to get. As long as one of the 4 members was subpar, the summation wouldn't save the music and make it good. Ed just got worse, that's the biggest factor to the downfall, not the exclusion of the CCP.

This post has been edited by Bremang: Apr 14 2013, 7:16 am

[themaestro]

Just listen to Believe. That's the collarborative effort we were going to get. As long as one of the 4 members was subpar, the summation wouldn't save the music and make it good. Ed just got worse, that's the biggest factor to the downfall, not the exclusion of the CCP.

Wrong. Believe is a pieced together song from a disjointed band, not a collaborative effort like Honest Man. KM immersed himself in the things that inspired Live. He spent a bunch of time with them and was ready to move to Lancaster. The Honest Man in the song was symbolic of his father as well as the many blue collar workers of the York area. Jerry Harrison (who Ed refuses to work with) even contributed some lyrics. Ed wouldn't have done those things. He wanted nothing to do with them. Didn't want to be their friend, their brother, their bandmate. That is why it is different.

This post has been edited by themaestro: Apr 14 2013, 8:28 am

[themaestro]

If Ed would surrender his ego, reconcile the things that cause him to be that way, rediscover his roots, reconnect with his friends and those that touched his life in profound ways, I think he could make some compelling music with Live again. The likelihood of that ever happening, close to zero. I saw Live in 2009 and Ed's performance of Hold Me Up was 90's Ed worthy. It was spectacular. Maybe because he had only done the song a few times live he had to do it the way he originally performed it. I don't know but it was great. The rest of the hits were done capably as well. Sure, there was some cheesiness and Forever was downright cringeworthy. But he showed me that night that he is/was completely capable from a performance standpoint of fronting Live.

Anyway, this is all pointless now and we have CS who will be making music with CCP in a fashion similar to what they did in the early years. They even revisited their early recordings to try to tap into that energy. We'll see how it turns out. I'm betting we'll be pleasantly surprised.

[Bremang]

Wrong. Believe is a pieced together song from a disjointed band, not a collaborative effort like Honest Man. KM immersed himself in the things that inspired Live. He spent a bunch of time with them and was ready to move to Lancaster. The Honest Man in the song was symbolic of his father as well as the many blue collar workers of the York area. Jerry Harrison (who Ed refuses to work with) even contributed some lyrics. Ed wouldn't have done those things. He wanted nothing to do with them. Didn't want to be their friend, their brother, their bandmate. That is why it is different.

If Ed would surrender his ego, reconcile the things that cause him to be that way, rediscover his roots, reconnect with his friends and those that touched his life in profound ways, I think he could make some compelling music with Live again. The likelihood of that ever happening, close to zero. I saw Live in 2009 and Ed's performance of Hold Me Up was 90's Ed worthy. It was spectacular. Maybe because he had only done the song a few times live he had to do it the way he originally performed it. I don't know but it was great. The rest of the hits were done capably as well. Sure, there was some cheesiness and Forever was downright cringeworthy. But he showed me that night that he is/was completely capable from a performance standpoint of fronting Live.

Anyway, this is all pointless now and we have CS who will be making music with CCP in a fashion similar to what they did in the early years. They even revisited their early recordings to try to tap into that energy. We'll see how it turns out. I'm betting we'll be pleasantly surprised.

Collaborate means that everyone has their own input. Believe was a collaboration.

Based on your explanation, you can just as easily say that CCP had huge egos for not having a desire to make cheesy church music that Ed's fans love. CCP wanted things their way, and so did Ed, and they cut each other out. Works both ways.

The ego argument in general doesn't work. Choosing a style or having a vision doesn't mean that someone has a big ego. I'm not saying he doesn't, but a better explanation is needed. Saying that Ed stopped wanting to make music with CCP doesn't suffice.

Ed isn't stupid, he knows what his music was like when he started and why he made it that way. He was either uninterested or not inclined to do that anymore.

Nobody really has an idea what happened on the friendship side, there was tons of drama. But you can't blame Ed for that either. That's between all four of them. Sometimes friends grow apart.

This post has been edited by Bremang: Apr 14 2013, 5:02 pm