The Songwriting of Live Options

[Pokey]

lol

[World Dreamer]

This, I think, was the overall reaction to the songs on The Garden.

[SJN1279]

God and how do you KNOW that? You don't, we know CG wrote less than anyone, but we do not know the ins and outs of what, where, amounts, time etc.. How do you know CG didn't contribute one little thing in a song writing process which made the whole song some together? I take it you've never written a song in your life, those "ah-ha!" moments can make and break songs, CG could have come up with one idea that allowed a hit song to flourish into what it is. Maybe he didn't, but maybe he did ... the point is you talk as if you were in the room 100% of the time knowing every little thing that went on, when truth is you do not know fucking shit.

So you think it is fair that Chad Gracey didn't contribute the same amount, but got the same percentage?

[FishOutaWater]

I will just say this. You can listen to any of the first three Live albums or the TGF album and listen to any Live performance and you can INSTANTLY recognize Chad Gracey's drumming as distinguishable from any other drummer. It is so distinctive and decisively characteristic of what Live's sound is, that it as much a critical component to Live's success as the vocals or lyrics or anything else. There are so many Live songs that wouldn't be anything without Gracey. They would be ordinary, flat and uninteresting.

And the same goes for the bass and guitars in all of those songs. Those perfect chord progressions and bass lines. Who's to say that it wasn't the rythm section in that performance of T.B.D. on MTV Unplugged that wasn't the turning point that resonated with fans and put Live over the top? Or fans going back after they heard Throwing Copper and listening to songs like Good Pain or Mother Earth which has such incredible drums, that solidified Live's fan base.

There is no prescription for how to make a famous rock band, but for Live, it sure as hell wasn't Ed emerging from his bedroom with his acoustic guitar and bestowing Mental Jewerly and Throwing Copper upon the rest of the band like Moses descending from Mt. Sinai with the stone tablets! He wasn't responsible for the sounds of the drums and bass and guitars you hear on the albums. If one little thing was off with the sound because Ed did it all himself, it wouldn't have been the same at all. Listen to what Ed is doing now that he is in total control. It doesn't sound at all like LIve.

There are TONS of great bands out there with great singers and great lyrics that never break through into the mainstream at all. That is because there is a magic recipe, a synergy of all the parts coming together to make magic, which relates and connects with fans. You can't discount or eliminate any part of it.

To say otherwise is ignorant and foolish. That is a fact! Ed wasn't entitled to 100% because without the entire band, Ed would be selling Bluray players at a Best Buy in York.

This post has been edited by FishOutaWater: Nov 27 2012, 3:42 pm

[themaestro]

Although Gracey's drums might not have been as prominent in the latter years of Live, since when did he not write his own parts? I never thought that was in question. Besides, it's foolish to not feature someone as talented as Gracey, and we all know where that stemmed from, Mrsurroundthedrummerwithplexiglas. Might as well have encased CT and PD in plexiglass too while he was at it.

This post has been edited by themaestro: Nov 27 2012, 3:47 pm

[Pokey]

So you think it is fair that Chad Gracey didn't contribute the same amount, but got the same percentage?

In the place I live, some people might use the electricity or water more than others but we split the bill evenly, no matter what; trying to divvy it up is too messy, causes too many problems and it's better to just split it.

So yeah, i think if you are a band with the formation and friendship that Live is, then it should be 25% each; its not like its bad money, but you're a money hungry greedy wimp like Ed is and you just want your cash, so I guess you don't work that way.

Just face it man, you never were a fan of Live.

[Pokey]

I will just say this. You can listen to any of the first three Live albums or the TGF album and listen to any Live performance and you can INSTANTLY recognize Chad Gracey's drumming as distinguishable from any other drummer. It is so distinctive and decisively characteristic of what Live's sound is, that it as much a critical component to Live's success as the vocals or lyrics or anything else. There are so many Live songs that wouldn't be anything without Gracey. They would be ordinary, flat and uninteresting.

Absolutely, and a lot of this I imagine comes from the fact CAG was totally self taught, he developed his own style, his little "double hit" is instantly recognisable.

But dude, you're dealing with someone here who can't see the worth in anything other than a voice and words, he just can't and doesn't understand music. He couldn't even give me a proper answer when I asked him why he wanted Ed back with CCP whilst not referring to sales/tours/audience etc...

Again, not a fan of Live; just a fan of Ed.

[themaestro]

So you think it is fair that Chad Gracey didn't contribute the same amount, but got the same percentage?

Just got to have credit for that big salad don't you.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2zTrBmI1nI

[FishOutaWater]

In the place I live, some people might use the electricity or water more than others but we split the bill evenly, no matter what; trying to divvy it up is too messy, causes too many problems and it's better to just split it.

So yeah, i think if you are a band with the formation and friendship that Live is, then it should be 25% each; its not like its bad money, but you're a money hungry greedy wimp like Ed is and you just want your cash, so I guess you don't work that way.

Just face it man, you never were a fan of Live.

I heard Daryl Hall on Howard Stern a few months ago and he was talking about how he and John Oates had some serious disagreements. Hall thought of himself as the driving force behind Hall & Oates and he resented splitting money with Oates. But whenever Daryl Hall goes out on his own and plays alone, he can't get anyone to come see him. The fans only want to see Hall & Oates. Daryl Hall has resigned himself to the fact that for whatever reason, the band Hall & Oates caught on in a way that Daryl Hall alone never could have and never did, and no longer can. So he still performs with John Oates and sells more tickets and makes more money that way.

Now I have no idea whether the contribution of Oates to Hall & Oates was any more or less than the contribution of CCP to Live, but I iwll say that Live would have never been Live without Chad Gracey and without that exact line-up and formula, Ed would never have done more than whatever Adam Kowalczyk is doing for a living right now (with all due respect to Adam).

You can't say that Ed would have reached the same level of success with or without CCP. That's not true. It took four people to make Live and to generate the incomes they generated and without any of them, they would have been playing coffee shops like Ed is now.

So is 25% each fair? ABSOLUTELY. POSITIVELY.

I bet 25% of Live would have been better than 100% of the Ed Kowalczyk empire that Ed is living in now.

[World Dreamer]

I heard Daryl Hall on Howard Stern a few months ago and he was talking about how he and John Oates had some serious disagreements. Hall thought of himself as the driving force behind Hall & Oates and he resented splitting money with Oates. But whenever Daryl Hall goes out on his own and plays alone, he can't get anyone to come see him. The fans only want to see Hall & Oates. Daryl Hall has resigned himself to the fact that for whatever reason, the band Hall & Oates caught on in a way that Daryl Hall alone never could have and never did, and no longer can. So he still performs with John Oates and sells more tickets and makes more money that way.

This jumped out at me. This is the reason Nick would contact venues to get Ed billed as "of Live" or "Live's". It is also why Ed named his tour the "I Alone" tour and why Ed plays 70-80% Live songs. No one would care about Ed if he wasn't attached to Live.

This is why Nick wants Ed to be back in Live.

The great news is that Hall never screwed over Oates like Ed did to Live. Hall didn't burn bridges and if he did he at least was able to be honest with himself and repair them.

Ed is nowhere near that point. He still thinks he is the great and all powerful EK. He did nothing wrong.

This post has been edited by World Dreamer: Nov 27 2012, 4:14 pm

[Pokey]

This is why Nick wants Ed to be back in Live.

Which is why I asked Nick why he wanted Ed back in Live without resorting to mentioning reasons to do with money, sales, charting, audience or tour ... he scrambled and couldn't really give a proper answer that related to music.
If Ed now gives everyone enough of the same Live songs over and over to satisfy them and is producing material now that is "among his best work ever" ... then why would you want Ed back in Live if not then just see him get more money?

I said once before that Nick must view Ed getting his pay check like a proud parent would watching their kids open presents on christmas morning.

To Nick, everything is about money and only motivated by money, he must live such a hollow existence. The only reason Ed would benefit from going back to Live is financially (and only marginally because he would HAVE to go back to sharing everything evenly as opposed to now he can take whatever he wants ... bigger piece of a smaller pie now as opposed to a smaller piece of a bigger pie.
Nick fires back saying CCP are motivated by money or they wouldn't be resurrecting Live without Ed as they could do something else. What Nick fails to realise is that the world doesn't work like he does, he's a "special" individual, the mere fact that 98% of this board disagrees with him constantly about everything is enough to show his way of thinking does not reflect the same on all others. I have no doubt CCCP don't believe they're taking over the world again, they know the fame and money game is over ... Nick just can't comprehend this, it just does not compute... it'd be like being told your Dad is gay; you'd just not be able to put the pieces together.

This post has been edited by Pokey: Nov 27 2012, 4:23 pm

[themaestro]

This jumped out at me. This is the reason Nick would contact venues to get Ed billed as "of Live" or "Live's". It is also why Ed named his tour the "I Alone" tour and why Ed plays 70-80% Live songs. No one would care about Ed if he wasn't attached to Live.

This is why Nick wants Ed to be back in Live.

The great news is that Hall never screwed over Oates like Ed did to Live. Hall didn't burn bridges and if he did he at least was able to be honest with himself and repair them.

Ed is nowhere near that point. He still thinks he is the great and all powerful EK. He did nothing wrong.

The mere fact that Hall would acknowledge that puts him light years ahead of Ed. I'm not sure if they ever had much animosity but I saw Oates on Live from Daryl's House and they seemed to get along well while promoting each's solo efforts as well as Hall and Oates.

[FishOutaWater]

This jumped out at me. This is the reason Nick would contact venues to get Ed billed as "of Live" or "Live's". It is also why Ed named his tour the "I Alone" tour and why Ed plays 70-80% Live songs. No one would care about Ed if he wasn't attached to Live.

This is why Nick wants Ed to be back in Live.

The great news is that Hall never screwed over Oates like Ed did to Live. Hall didn't burn bridges and if he did he at least was able to be honest with himself and repair them.

Ed is nowhere near that point. He still thinks he is the great and all powerful EK. He did nothing wrong.

Exactly. Ed is trying to do everything he can to benefit from the Live brand without including CCP or sharing any money with them. That is the reason for the EddieKLive website, and the Alive album, and the I Alone Tour, and the Live song set list, and the billing of Ed "of Live". I am sure that Daryl Hall and many lead singers would like to just go out with minimum wage musicians under the billing of the original band's name and just cash in for themselves because they think that the success was ALL because of them. That happened when you start to believe your own press clippings. It's ego. He is really trying to exploit it for his ticket sales without actually having to be in Live and share anything. I don't think that is even deniable at this point. And in his heart he feels he is entitled to that because he really believes that all or most of Live's success was attributable to him and he was Live. I can see that perspective. But he is wrong and he doesn't know it. Until he can see it, he won't change.

[Pokey]

Exactly. Ed is trying to do everything he can to benefit from the Live brand without including CCP or sharing any money with them. That is the reason for the EddieKLive website, and the Alive album, and the I Alone Tour, and the Live song set list, and the billing of Ed "of Live". I am sure that Daryl Hall and many lead singers would like to just go out with minimum wage musicians under the billing of the original band's name and just cash in for themselves because they think that the success was ALL because of them. That happened when you start to believe your own press clippings. It's ego. He is really trying to exploit it for his ticket sales without actually having to be in Live and share anything. I don't think that is even deniable at this point. And in his heart he feels he is entitled to that because he really believes that all or most of Live's success was attributable to him and he was Live. I can see that perspective. But he is wrong and he doesn't know it. Until he can see it, he won't change.

The funny thing is if Ed was still making the exact same music as he is now, but right off the bat he only put 3-4 Live songs in his set each night, didn't call his album Alive, didn't call it the I Alone tour, didn't make it EddieKLIVE.com, didn't try to sell Live lyric sheets etc... I'd actually be really impressed with him. You could say "well I think your music sucks, but good for you man for believing in it enough to forge your own identity and life after Live" ... but dear god is he sucking it dry for every single bit it's worth. It's just pathetic and sad.

Someone posted the Waterboy video from Brazil on WD the other day, and I was watching that going "how the hell did this guy turn into the Eddie K we know now..."

[jayda]

Do you think it is fair that they got song-writing royalties for songs that they didn't write? And they are suing over SFBM song-writing royalties? Seriously?

Show me where it's written that Ed solely wrote all those songs? Lyrics and music? Don't worry about SFBM, but everything else? Seriously?

I must have it wrong, but I thought Ed left LIVE to concentrate on his own shit?