gotigrz's Christianity topic, part 2 Options

[gotigrz]

Someone i think badman or merica actually asked ed in person and he admitted being a christian. im pretty sure his is a little more of an open faith (i remember a recent interview where he stated that praying doesnt do much good in the world) I know he thinks the bible is the best source of morality and guide for mankind but im not clear if he believes in the divinity of jesus or that he was born of a virgin etc...

well, if ed said that he was a Christian, then he does believe in the virgin birth, the dying on the cross, and the resurrection 3 days later. that is the criteria of being a Christian. nobody says, .. "yeah, i'm a Christian, but that whole virgin birth thing is just crazy."

when ed said that about prayer not doing much good (i heard the interview)... he was referring to prayer that he thinks isn't really "prayer". he was saying that when you are truly in prayer with God that you are like one with Him, and that most people just close their eyes and ask for something. and, that THAT isn't doing much good cause that's what most people do and look at the world around us. PRAYER... aka... truly talking to God is VERY powerful.

[mattyeagles]

I dont necessarily agree/disagree with anything your saying, but PLEASE stop, your being incredibly overbearing

[Pokey]

well, if ed said that he was a Christian, then he does believe in the virgin birth, the dying on the cross, and the resurrection 3 days later. that is the criteria of being a Christian. nobody says, .. "yeah, i'm a Christian, but that whole virgin birth thing is just crazy."

when ed said that about prayer not doing much good (i heard the interview)... he was referring to prayer that he thinks isn't really "prayer". he was saying that when you are truly in prayer with God that you are like one with Him, and that most people just close their eyes and ask for something. and, that THAT isn't doing much good cause that's what most people do and look at the world around us. PRAYER... aka... truly talking to God is VERY powerful.

You got no idea how much im loving your ranting after going to a convention to hear Richard Dawkins rant over the weekend, his is much more convincing.
I doubt it's very powerful ... I prayed, like really prayed for years and I never felt anything powerful about it come to think of it. If it was VERY powerful then surely I'd not have "strayed from the path".

This post has been edited by Pokey: Mar 17 2010, 7:37 am

[gotigrz]

I dont necessarily agree/disagree with anything your saying, but PLEASE stop, your being incredibly overbearing

how 'bout this: if you don't like what i type.... don't read it. and, please tell me how i'm being "overbearing".

[gotigrz]

You got no idea how much im loving your ranting after going to a convention to hear Richard Dawkins rant over the weekend, his is much more convincing.
I doubt it's very powerful ... I prayed, like really prayed for years and I never felt anything powerful about it come to think of it. If it was VERY powerful then surely I'd not have "strayed from the path".

pokey, i've got to take you saying... "i prayed" like i take other atheists saying.. "i've read the bible many times". i'm a Christian and i've never read the bible all the way through once.... but, i'm working on it. anyway, dawkins is a VERY smart man... i've listened to many of his speeches or whatever, and while he does have valid points... he's wrong. he, like all other atheists, doesn't believe because of lack of physical proof. but, God said that you are saved, not by your works, but by your faith. meaning... THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO SAVE YOURSELF... AND THAT INCLUDES FINDING PROOF.... CAUSE IT AIN'T THERE.

the theory of evolution tells us how things came to be. except one thing... LIFE. and, for me they can't explain much more, either. like why are humans so much more advanced than our ancestors... the chimps? i mean a dog isn't that much more advanced than a wolf, right. a cat isn't that much more advanced than a lion. maybe man is so much more advanced so that man would rule the earth forever and not let anything overtake it like God said... GENESIS 1:28

and, why has the earth spun exactly the same for so many years so that the seasons have yet to get out of line... just like the bible said... GENESIS 1:14.

science is great for explaining HOW... but, not so good to explain WHY.

[Pokey]

pokey, i've got to take you saying... "i prayed" like i take other atheists saying.. "i've read the bible many times". i'm a Christian and i've never read the bible all the way through once.... but, i'm working on it. anyway, dawkins is a VERY smart man... i've listened to many of his speeches or whatever, and while he does have valid points... he's wrong. he, like all other atheists, doesn't believe because of lack of physical proof. but, God said that you are saved, not by your works, but by your faith. meaning... THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO SAVE YOURSELF... AND THAT INCLUDES FINDING PROOF.... CAUSE IT AIN'T THERE.

the theory of evolution tells us how things came to be. except one thing... LIFE. and, for me they can't explain much more, either. like why are humans so much more advanced than our ancestors... the chimps? i mean a dog isn't that much more advanced than a wolf, right. a cat isn't that much more advanced than a lion. maybe man is so much more advanced so that man would rule the earth forever and not let anything overtake it like God said... GENESIS 1:28

and, why has the earth spun exactly the same for so many years so that the seasons have yet to get out of line... just like the bible said... GENESIS 1:14.

science is great for explaining HOW... but, not so good to explain WHY.

I prayed because I was brought up a catholic and only later have I considered myself an athiest. I went to catholic schools, I know the teachings .. I'm not an athiest who thought "Oh I'll give this christianity thing a bash and if it does nothing for me then I'll feel justified".

I just love the fact that you talk about lack of proof and then follow that up with "God said".

Anyhoo this thread is about Ed's single, I'm not gonna shit on it further and go off topic with a religious discussion ... you can start a thread in off topic if you really want to give a sermon.

[gotigrz]

ok, replace "God" with "the bible"... is that better?

any book that states facts about the way the earth is and the way it will always be that was written thousands of years ago and the facts it referred to still hold true to this day most have been written by someone greater than you and i could ever imagine.

[thefunkyredcaboose]

ok, replace "God" with "the bible"... is that better?

any book that states facts about the way the earth is and the way it will always be that was written thousands of years ago and the facts it referred to still hold true to this day most have been written by someone greater than you and i could ever imagine.

You are the worst Christian apologist on Earth. Please stop, it is embarrassing.

[FishOutaWater]

5 things to say here.

1. I listened to Grace very loud in my car this morning. I really like it and this isn't even a final mix.

2. I listened to They Stood Up For Love and Lightening Crashes off of the accoustic bootleg that Ed gave away with the free fan club membership and I got chills and goosebumps and even some moist eyes. I don't know what it is, but damn that Ed can move me with his music!

3. Gotigrz - you are wrong and closed-minded when you say that someone can not call themselves a Christian and not believe in the virgin birth and resurection, etc. That is one set of beliefs that is included in one way of practicing Chritianity, bit not the only only way. I guess it all depends on how you define the term "Christianity". Maybe you define it as "Those who believe the same things as I do about Jesus and the bible and follow the same traditions and creeds and doctrines that I do, and nothing else qualifies as Christianity". Where do you draw the lines? Just Catholics are Chritstians. Just Catholics and Lutherans, but the evangelicals and born agains aren't real Christians? Maybe you just define it to include only those who belive that Jesus was born as the only son of God, in a virgin birth, from immaculate conception and that he was God himself and rose from the dead after three days. Anyone who believes that is a Christian and everyone else is not. Maybe you define it like that because you think your beliefs are right and everyone else's is wrong. If so, then that's closed minded. I think that a "Christian" is someone who follows a tradition that focuses on Jesus's life and death as its touchstone and centerpiece. In other words, one who follows a spiritual tradition that is Jesus-centered. There is some diversity of thought there. If you look at what Ed reads, and look at Father Thomas Keating whom he follows, Ed is clearly taking a mystical, transformatoinal path that is aspiring to shed the ego-based, seperate self-sense, and attain universal Christ Consciousness, which is the same attainment sought by all religions. Whether you or I believe this fact or that fact to be true is almost irrelevant to this path. There are many people in the world who call themselves Christians who do not believe the same set of facts about Jesus that you do, but nevertheless, they have centered their spiritual lives around Jesus and the meaning that they take away from Jesus life and death. I don't deny those people the title of Christians.

4. Thank you Gotigrz for posting that link to the mtv website on which Ed describes his Christian views and mentioned Father Thomas Keating. That was very illuminating for me personally and to better understand where Ed is coming from. I am motivated to learn more about Thomas Keating's views now. I am going to work on that. I have been reading a bunch of Marcus Borg, whom I admire a great deal (another Christian who does not necessary think you need to believe everything out of the book literally). From what I can see, Father Keating speaks of the same universal consciousness and shedding of the ego as Eastern traditions, but does so within the familiar framework of Christianity and the teachings of Jesus which, if you read those teachings from that perspective, easily lend themselves to a message of consciousness and oneness. I am going to look into that some more.

5. I knew Thomas Keating was within the Ken Wilber clan of spiritual gurus and I guess it makes perfect sense that Ed has made his way from Ken intially, to Genpo Roshi and big mind a few years ago and now to Father Keating. Father Thomas Keating probably relates the familiar ground of Ed's Catholic upbringing to the more enlightened spiritual views that Ed attained in his prior work and there is probably a comfort in coming home to the framework of that tradition. In a way, Ed hasn't changes all that much. He is still searching and hanging onto one teacher or another. It started with Catholicism, then Krishnamurti, then he found Wilber around the TDTH period and he has been plugged in there since then, working his way from Wilber to Genpo Roshi to Father Thomas Keating.

This post has been edited by FishOutaWater: Mar 17 2010, 12:50 pm

[Senghe]

well, if ed said that he was a Christian, then he does believe in the virgin birth, the dying on the cross, and the resurrection 3 days later. that is the criteria of being a Christian. nobody says, .. "yeah, i'm a Christian, but that whole virgin birth thing is just crazy."

when ed said that about prayer not doing much good (i heard the interview)... he was referring to prayer that he thinks isn't really "prayer". he was saying that when you are truly in prayer with God that you are like one with Him, and that most people just close their eyes and ask for something. and, that THAT isn't doing much good cause that's what most people do and look at the world around us. PRAYER... aka... truly talking to God is VERY powerful.

Believing physically in virgin births and your dad resurrecting you makes you an idiot, not a Christian. They are very powerful metaphors though, if you need that kind of thing in your life. I have every respect for people who believe in whatever god they choose, but rampant, close minded, indoctrinated bigots who believe the bible is the exact word of god, all fact and that every other Christian believe EXACTLY what they do are the worst kind of Christians. Not every Christian is like that, but sadly there are too many like you, gotigrz. Look at the hoops the Christian 'scientific' community go through to keep the myth of the Turin Shroud alive when it's quite obvious it's a product of the medieval fake relic trade. And your absolute bald denial in the face of overwhelming evidence of evolution and the elegance of the causal nature of the universe in favour of intelligent design and creationism. What is wrong with you people? Would you even know if your own dogma bit you on the arse?

Talking to god is called prayer, asking god for favours is called desperation, but if he starts talking back to you it's called schizophrenia.

p.s. You can't interchange god with the bible. The bible states no facts at all and is a collection of stories translated from manuscripts, written by a succession of different people over the space of a couple of thousand years. It has no more truth than any other such collection, such as the unwritten Aboriginal dream time or the Greek, Egyptian or Norse myths. Sadly, it got a lot more credence as it was the weapon of choice to subdue the peasants of Europe.

[gotigrz]

"Where do you draw the lines?" the line is drawn by God or Jesus... not me.

"Maybe you just define it to include only those who belive that Jesus was born as the only son of God, in a virgin birth, from immaculate conception and that he was God himself and rose from the dead after three days." well, i do believe that a true Christian WILL believe those things. but, that is far from where it ends. i believe a true Christian will take those beliefs and know that Jesus is the One that he/she needs to live their life for. if someone claims to be a Christian, but doesn't believe in the virgin birth or that Jesus died for the sin of all men and that He rose from the dead then why even bother to call yourself a Christian... do you do it just to hold some sort of social title... it's far from that, it's an inner peace that you KNOW that you are loved and cared for by One that is ALWAYS there.

Anyone who believes that is a Christian and everyone else is not. Maybe you define it like that because you think your beliefs are right and everyone else's is wrong. If so, then that's closed minded. John 3:16 says "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life". this is what God claims that God said... so, if anyone is close minded, it's God,... not the proclaiming Christian.

There are many people in the world who call themselves Christians who do not believe the same set of facts about Jesus that you do, but nevertheless, they have centered their spiritual lives around Jesus and the meaning that they take away from Jesus life and death. I don't deny those people the title of Christians. calling yourself something doesn't make you that. you have to be something to actually be it. A Christian is a person who knows they are a sinner and that their sins would condemn them to Hell if it were not for the blood of Jesus Christ shed for the forgiveness of their sins. as far as whether you have to believe in the virgin birth, or the resurrection... i don't know for 100%.. but, if Jesus actually is the Man that died for me and is the atonement of my sins, then why would i not believe what He says?

there are many diversities in Christianity... but, believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died for the sins of Man is not one of them.

This post has been edited by gotigrz: Mar 17 2010, 2:41 pm

[Sakhmet2]

pokey, i've got to take you saying... "i prayed" like i take other atheists saying.. "i've read the bible many times". i'm a Christian and i've never read the bible all the way through once.... but, i'm working on it. anyway, dawkins is a VERY smart man... i've listened to many of his speeches or whatever, and while he does have valid points... he's wrong. he, like all other atheists, doesn't believe because of lack of physical proof. but, God said that you are saved, not by your works, but by your faith. meaning... THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO TO SAVE YOURSELF... AND THAT INCLUDES FINDING PROOF.... CAUSE IT AIN'T THERE.

the theory of evolution tells us how things came to be. except one thing... LIFE. and, for me they can't explain much more, either. like why are humans so much more advanced than our ancestors... the chimps? i mean a dog isn't that much more advanced than a wolf, right. a cat isn't that much more advanced than a lion. maybe man is so much more advanced so that man would rule the earth forever and not let anything overtake it like God said... GENESIS 1:28

and, why has the earth spun exactly the same for so many years so that the seasons have yet to get out of line... just like the bible said... GENESIS 1:14.

science is great for explaining HOW... but, not so good to explain WHY.

STOP, PLEASE JUST STOP IT.

[gotigrz]

Believing physically in virgin births and your dad resurrecting you makes you an idiot, not a Christian. They are very powerful metaphors though, if you need that kind of thing in your life.

exactly what is that a metaphor for?

Look at the hoops the Christian 'scientific' community go through to keep the myth of the Turin Shroud alive

what hoops? do tell...

And your absolute bald denial in the face of overwhelming evidence of evolution and the elegance of the causal nature of the universe in favour of intelligent design and creationism.

call me ignorant, but what are you saying here... that evolution supports intelligent design and creationism? no?

The bible states no facts at all

are you saying there was no flood? are you saying that the earth isn't round and isn't hanging in space by nothing? here are some more facts that you say aren't in the bible http://www.evidencebible.com/witnessingtoo...ntheBible.shtml

[FishOutaWater]

"Where do you draw the lines?" the line is drawn by God or Jesus... not me.

"Maybe you just define it to include only those who belive that Jesus was born as the only son of God, in a virgin birth, from immaculate conception and that he was God himself and rose from the dead after three days." well, i do believe that a true Christian WILL believe those things. but, that is far from where it ends. i believe a true Christian will take those beliefs and know that Jesus is the One that he/she needs to live their life for. if someone claims to be a Christian, but doesn't believe in the virgin birth or that Jesus died for the sin of all men and that He rose from the dead then why even bother to call yourself a Christian... do you do it just to hold some sort of social title... it's far from that, it's an inner peace that you KNOW that you are loved and cared for by One that is ALWAYS there.

Anyone who believes that is a Christian and everyone else is not. Maybe you define it like that because you think your beliefs are right and everyone else's is wrong. If so, then that's closed minded. John 3:16 says "for God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son and whoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life". this is what God claims that God said... so, if anyone is close minded, it's God,... not the proclaiming Christian.

There are many people in the world who call themselves Christians who do not believe the same set of facts about Jesus that you do, but nevertheless, they have centered their spiritual lives around Jesus and the meaning that they take away from Jesus life and death. I don't deny those people the title of Christians. calling yourself something doesn't make you that. you have to be something to actually be it. A Christian is a person who knows they are a sinner and that their sins would condemn them to Hell if it were not for the blood of Jesus Christ shed for the forgiveness of their sins. as far as whether you have to believe in the virgin birth, or the resurrection... i don't know for 100%.. but, if Jesus actually is the Man that died for me and is the atonement of my sins, then why would i not believe what He says?

there are many diversities in Christianity... but, believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that He died for the sins of Man is not one of them.

Well, I'm out. I can't have a discussion with someone holding such a limited point of view. I could debate the gospel citation on a historical, metaphorical and translation basis, but somehow I think it would do no good.

Have a great day.

[gotigrz]

STOP, PLEASE JUST STOP IT.

why? why do you want me to stop? i'm not embarrassed, so i'm not embarrassing myself. and, just because i'm saying what i believe doesn't mean i'm attacking anyone or being overbearing... if you don't want me to talk about it then don't reply to me.... or better yet... don't even read what i say.... but, just saying "STOP, PLEASE JUST STOP IT"... sounds like you don't want to hear something that is bothering you inside more than just irritating.