The reasons for Live's album disparity? Options

[AgentK7]

Instead of providing opinions for why Live's last couple of albums haven't met with the best success, I'm going to give you a breakdown of the album credits (verbatim from the cd booklet when practical):

Mental Jewelry (1991)

• Produced by Jerry Harrison for Construct Music, Inc.
• All Songs written by Edward Kowalczyk, Chad Taylor, Patrick Dahlheimer and Chad Gracey

Throwing Copper (1994)

• Produced by Jerry Harrison
• Lyrics: Kowalczyk Music: Live

Secret Samadhi (1997)

• Produced by Jay Healy and Live
• Written and Performed by Live (Lyrics by Ed Kowalczyk)

The Distance To Here (1999)

• Produced by Jerry Harrison and Live
• Lyrics by Ed Kowalczyk. Music by Ed Kowalczyk (except "Run To The Water" Kowalczyk, Dahlheimer "Voodoo Lady" Kowalczyk, Taylor "Where Fishes Go" Kowalczyk, Taylor and "They Stood Up For Love" Kowalczyk, Taylor,Dahlheimer)

V (2001)

• Produced by Live, Railo and Alain Johannes*
• Lyrics and Music by Ed Kowalczyk*
• *Forever May Not be long enough has writing and production credits to Ed Kowalczyk AND Glen Ballard

Birds Of Pray (2003)

• Produced by Jim Wirt
• Lyrics by Ed Kowalczyk. Music by Ed Kowalczyk (except "Like I Do" Ed Kowalczyk, Patrick Dahlheimer, Chad Taylor and "Lighthouse" Ed Kowalczyk, Chad Taylor)

Songs From Black Mountain (2006)

• Produced by Jim Wirt
• Songs by Ed Kowalczyk

I know my interpretation of this information, I'm curious what others think....

This post has been edited by AgentK7: Sep 13 2007, 3:48 pm

[Costakoui]

Instead of providing opinions for why Live's last couple of albums haven't met with the best success, I'm going to give you a breakdown of the album credits (verbatim from the cd booklet when practical):

Mental Jewelry (1991)

• Produced by Jerry Harrison for Construct Music, Inc.
• All Songs written by Edward Kowalczyk, Chad Taylor, Patrick Dahlheimer and Chad Gracey

Throwing Copper (1994)

• Produced by Jerry Harrison
• Lyrics: Kowalczyk Music: Live

Secret Samadhi (1997)

• Produced by Jay Healy and Live
• Written and Performed by Live (Lyrics by Ed Kowalczyk)

The Distance To Here (1999)

• Produced by Jerry Harrison and Live
• Lyrics by Ed Kowalczyk. Music by Ed Kowalczyk (except "Run To The Water" Kowalczyk, Dahlheimer "Voodoo Lady" Kowalczyk, Taylor "Where Fishes Go" Kowalczyk, Taylor and "They Stood Up For Love" Kowalczyk, Taylor,Dahlheimer)

V (2001)

• Produced by Live, Railo and Alain Johannes*
• Lyrics and Music by Ed Kowalczyk*
• *Forever May Not be long enough has writing and production credits to Ed Kowalczyk AND Glen Ballard

Birds Of Pray (2003)

• Produced by Jim Wirt
• Lyrics by Ed Kowalczyk. Music by Ed Kowalczyk (except "Like I Do" Ed Kowalczyk, Patrick Dahlheimer, Chad Taylor and "Lighthouse" Ed Kowalczyk, Chad Taylor)

Songs From Black Mountain (2006)

• Produced by Jim Wirt
• Songs by Ed Kowalczyk

I know my interpretation of this information, I'm curious what others think....

I guess you say that Live’s misfortune is attributed to that fact that overtime Ed wrote more while the rest guys wrote less? Ok, but hold on a minute. This man wrote the best songs on TC, (I do not know what he wrote alone on SS) and TDTH, and he wrote Overcome and Like I Do (two of the best ever made by Live).

The misfortune, to me, should be attributed to the genre that has shifted from loud guitars to soft rock sound, started with TDTH, but largely to mistakes made in terms of the albums and singles released. The biggest mistake in my opinion was the release of the chosen singles from SS right after the massive success of TC. People wanted something more catchy and melodic such as Selling the Drama or Lightning Crashes. Lift Me Up would be huge if it was put on the album that followed TC. Since this did not happen, Live should choose more catchy songs to release from SS. SS was great, Lakini’s Jiuce, Freaks and Turn My Head were fantastic but should not be the first singles. Songs like Insomnia, Gad Hed Goes West, Hero… and Ghost would escalate sales and maintain Live’s reputation. SS went up to #1 in billboard charts but even if V was released that time it would have the same luck.

TDTH was great too. The Dolphin’s Cry was catchy and succeeded but the singles that followed did not grasp people’s attention. From this album Where Fishes Go and FTQRR would possibly have a better luck. But again if Lift Me Up was on that album and was released after TDC, the album would be huge. TDTH in general did not have the very catchy songs as did TC that would keep people’s interest alive.

V killed Live’s reputation, while BOP and SFBM were mis-promoted although they had the potential to succeed, especially BOP. An order of singles released such as Like I Do, Lighthouse and She would onset a different course of the album in the market.

In summary, the reasons for Live’s misfortune mainly lie in the promotion of the wrong singles and the decision not to release some of the best songs ever made in the history of music.

[SecretInsomnia]

I agree that I sometimes didn't understand the single choices. But the main point I see in comparing all those album stuff is: bring back Jerry Harrison, damned!
MJ, TC and TDTH. There you have it!

This post has been edited by SecretInsomnia: Sep 13 2007, 5:08 am

[Costakoui]

I agree that I sometimes didn't understand the single choices. But the main point I see in comparing all those album stuff is: bring back Jerry Harrison, damned!
MJ, TC and TDTH. There you have it!

Jerry Harrison did not produce SS but the album was great. He did not produce BoP but half of it was great too. TDTH is not very well produced, it could have been much better with more raw sound.

What Live needs is not Harrison, but write good rock and catchy songs with solid lyrics.

[FishOutaWater]

My interpretation - just plain, straight-forward honesty: The stuff in the catalog that Ed alone has had responsibility for is Live's worst stuff. The stuff that the whole band contributed to (or at least Dalheimer and Taylor) is Live's best stuff. Even on TDTH and BoP, the best songs on those albums by far credit Dalheimer and Taylor along with Ed. It's not like Taylor and Dalheimer don't want to contribute. They're off doing great side projects to have a creative outlet. If Ed would give up some control and return to involving the whole band in music writing and producing, their next project would be better than the last 3. I've known that for a while, but it is interesting to see it supported by the liner notes.

Is Live independant now? Are they still signed with a record company? If not, I'd like to see the next studio album recorded in Lancaster at Moontree, with the whole band's participation.

[sellingthdrama]

He did not produce BoP but half of it was great too.

That's debatable.

What Live needs is not Harrison, but write good rock and catchy songs with solid lyrics.

I say both - Jerry Harrison and improved lyrics, rock, and songs. All I see is that my fav albums (except for SS) have Jerry Harrison's name on them and had 'Live' as the music credit, not just Ed.

[ponzu]

I think some of their misfortune lies in PR. I never heard Live on the radio after TC, in fact, I didn't even know they were still together for the longest time. When I did catch up with them again (Magni sang TDC on Rockstar Supernova) I started looking for them. I then bought all the other albums that I did not have and ended up having to order some on line because they were not in music stores. I absolutely love V with maybe the exception of two or three songs and BoP is great too. In my car, I never am without those two albums. Right now they have a concert on the 28th in NO and no radio stations around here are promoting them - what's up with that? Get new PR people.

This post has been edited by ponzu: Sep 13 2007, 12:42 pm

[SinfulEyes]

I wouldn't exactly call Live's recent failures misfortunes. A misfortune is something with that of a poor outcome that was out of the person(s) control.

In the case of Live and their recently embarassing albums, it was poorly written music that resulted in their failures.

[alexou]

We know Ed always wrote more than 75% of the records, even before 75%, so I don't think Ed is the only reason for the misfortunes. I also question the involvement of the other band members since TDTH because they have almost never been in the same place to record since that time and to me this doesn't help at all doing great records. Chad T. and Pat got a family and they spent time with kids I suppose.

The way Ed is involved is by composing candy pop music (SFBM and most of BOP). Maybe that is why the others don't want to put their input. So relations between the guys could be a factor as well. In concert they look like they are having a good time but we don't know about tensions in the band. They are not big enough for a biography so we could know some stuff. Besides Chad T.'scrisis in V era, I don't know any other stories.

So they are responsible for their misfortunes. The problem was V, recorded too fast after TDTh , too different, too much falsetto and keyboards despite a couple of GREAT songs. They lost their essence there, which was 4 guys together playing rock music. The keyboard erased this pure rock. There was some in TDTH (TSUFL), and other presences here and there, but once is not a crime, a whole record is another story.

Alex

[sellingthdrama]

They are not big enough for a biography so we could know some stuff. Besides Chad T.'scrisis in V era, I don't know any other stories.

Alex

What was Chad's crises during the V era??? I've heard of it before, but I don't know the story at all.

[alexou]

he wrote a blog entry saying he was not happy with the way he was involved in the writing of V. I don't really know how mad he was, but it seemed serious at the time.

Alex

[SecretInsomnia]

he wrote a blog entry saying he was not happy with the way he was involved in the writing of V. I don't really know how mad he was, but it seemed serious at the time.

Alex

yep, that wasn't a hopefull blog to read at that time he even described how it would be like if he was just gone, disapeared or something.

but oke. I think there's a reasonable chance they will work together at an album, maybe even for the next one. I mean, if they want to change their direction a bit (as they did with almost every album), they will realise they will get a change by recording a record on which everyone is contributing.

[AgentK7]

Misfortunes probably wasn't the right word to use, I was having a hard time coming up with a subject for this topic. I guess perhaps "waning sales" or "disparity" would have been a better term to use.


Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that when the band is credited with the music, the results tend to be good. They tend to be even better when Jerry Harrison is involved.

Mental Jewelry, Throwing Copper and The Distance to Here is arguably Live's fanbases favorite albums. These were the albums that were produced by Jerry Harrison and the entire band had a lot of input musically. The Distance To Here had a lot of entirely Ed composed songs, but some of the best/most memorable ones were collaborations with other band members (They Stood Up For Love, Run To The Water, etc). (They Stood up for love is probably my favorite Live song, mainly because it works as a rock song, acoustic song and a ballad, and I love all three versions)

V was primarily produced by the band and friends and was credited musically soul-ly to Ed (with the exception of the Mummy Returns tune). I believe most Live fans agree this is their least favorite album. When it initially came out, I'll admit I liked it but it grew stale fast. In retrospect it comes off as candy.....really tasty but no nutritional value (Overcome of course being an exception, but that was essentially a holdover from ADTH was it not?)

Birds of Pray is better received by the fans and a new producer was involved. Additional bandmembers contributed to some of fans' favorite tune on the album (Like I do and Lighthouse).

Songs From Black Mountain had its moments and used the same producer as Birds Of Pray, but the fact that Ed handled all the music may have contributed to its low key sameness.

Secret Samadhi is the exception for me that proves how much involvement Jerry Harrison seems to bring to the albums. The music was very good and it was a solid band collaboration with all the music credited to the band. However, I didn't care for the production of the album. I really think Freaks would have been served better as a b-side (do producers make those kind of recommendations/decisions?). To me the album sounded more brittle and overall darker then Throwing Copper. I think this is another reason ADTH was so well received.

Ed always writes the lyrics, and does a good job, but when the band collaborates together on the music, the album is better for it. The songs are more varied and provide a more complete listening experience. When a strong producer is involved (Jerry) the albums are that much better for it.

Was there a falling out with Jerry? Do you think there's a chance the band could ever work together with him again?

[ponzu]

...V was primarily produced by the band and friends and was credited musically soul-ly to Ed (with the exception of the Mummy Returns tune). I believe most Live fans agree this is their least favorite album. When it initially came out, I'll admit I liked it but it grew stale fast. In retrospect it comes off as candy.....really tasty but no nutritional value (Overcome of course being an exception, but that was essentially a holdover from ADTH was it not?)...



How can you can that V comes off as candy? The Ride, Simple Creed, OK?, these songs promote mind expansion and the awakening of universal consciousness. To me I see the guys going through transitions in life and finding a balance between serving self and others.

This post has been edited by ponzu: Sep 13 2007, 8:22 pm

[Gunner Scott]

...V was primarily produced by the band and friends and was credited musically soul-ly to Ed (with the exception of the Mummy Returns tune). I believe most Live fans agree this is their least favorite album. When it initially came out, I'll admit I liked it but it grew stale fast. In retrospect it comes off as candy.....really tasty but no nutritional value (Overcome of course being an exception, but that was essentially a holdover from ADTH was it not?)...
How can you can that V comes off as candy? The Ride, Simple Creed, OK?, these songs promote mind expansion and the awakening of universal consciousness. To me I see the guys going through transitions in life and finding a balance between serving self and others.

I heard in a recent interview that the next studio album was going to be a team effort both musically and lyrically and a lot more rocked up. can't remember where I heard it though!