Yes, those mysterious "bagels in my oven".......

What we look fondly on as dark and mysterious lyrics would have been ripped to shreds had they appeared on any Ed solo album.

If we're being perfectly honest with ourselves, the difference that separates SS from Alive the most is the music, not the lyrics.

That's true, but you're picking the worst of the lyrics on one album and comparing it to a whole other album. Most albums would have a stinker .. personally "she rode a horse into my head" isn't great, that doesn't mean TC is lyrically comparable to Alive. There is still a hell of a lot more lyrically interesting going on with SS than there is with Alive. It's definitely a bigger difference in the music .. I mean 3 of the guys that wrote one of the albums aren't even present on the other so it has to be the biggest difference. But lyrically they're still lightyears apart. Even in ways like Ed name dropping Henry Miller as an author, now he'd be name dropping the book of Matthew and Luke instead.

My brother kicked his feet to sleep
My brother kicked his feet to sleep
My brother kicked his feet to sleep
and I sang the dirge song

I actually really like that song, but yea, some of the songs on SS weren't works of lyrical genius.

Oh, I openly admit that I did cherry pick the worst of the lyrics. However, I think there are some here who act like prior to V, Ed was incapable of lyrical foolishness.

I'm not disagreeing that SS and the like are far more lyrically pleasing as a whole than Alive. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that Ed's lyrical powers were infallible then. I'm trying to avoid the extreme view. Even with the lyrical goofiness, I still love Insominia and the Hole in the Universe because of the total sound of it. I don't think I'm going out on a limb by saying I'm not the only one.

I think the difference is that on SS Ed was still using original concepts (both for himself and others). The lyrics of Alive read like a bunch of Ed/Christian cliches strung together. SS, while having many nonsensical tracks, was very original lyrically.

The genius of Imsomnia and Rattlesnake is that years later I am still trying to figure out what they mean. On Alive there is no doubt what the song means because its all a bunch of overused lyrical formulas. Pick your poison I guess.

What is genius about not being able to figure out a song's meaning? A few of my very favorites actually, but lyrically they are just silly. Simply LOVE the into to Rattlesnake.

I'm not quite sure there is genius in it honestly, BUT I know that it beats writing the same thing over and over again or beating someone over the head with the meaning of a song.

We could have a really interesting discussion about what Rattlesnake means. Can we have that same interesting discussion about Drive? Eh, not really.

On this, I'm in complete agreement. I do believe Ed's lyrics became more painful as the meanings became more concrete vs. abstract. I just take exception to the idea that he was lyrically perfect prior to V. In fact, some of Ed's lyrics from the early albums remind me of the Eddie Izzard line when he's talking about people singing the national anthem being a matter of 70% how you look, 20% how you sound, and 10% what you say. I can think of a number of lines that seemed silly on paper, but the way they sounded as part of the song was great.

Agreed, I've never claimed Ed's lyrics as one of the main reasons for enjoying Live. I do think some of the early songs are absolutely brilliant though.

There are some duds, Waitress is particularly lame.

The fact is you think they're silly, someone else gets something out of them, someone else gets something else .. with Alive it just ... is what it is. There's no discussion. Where are the threads about people discussing the song meanings? Back in the day I remember different Live songs were posted and everyone chimed in with their own interprutation and there were some really differing opinions. You just can't do that with Alive because it's just surface deep.
Its not so much about being able to figure out the songs meaning as it is figuring out what Ed means by it. I'm sure people still draw their own conclusions which may or may not be what Ed had in mind. With Eat Your Love, Stand, Everlasting Love, In Your Light ... everyone would just come to more or less the same conclusion, there's no depth.
Even the song names for the most part were more creative and had something about them ... Lakini's Juice, Heropsychodreamer, Gas Hed Goes West, Insomnia and the hole in the Universe ... who the hell would be able to look at those songs titles before they heard the song and know what they were in for? Yes the album also has Turn My Head, Freaks, Century .. song titles which are more "normal" ... but the difference is on Alive you don't have one that sparks interest (possibly Zion maybe).

Basically whilst I was rambling on in a never ending paragraph you just condensed what I was getting at in one and a half lines there, thanks

Yes but you were just as eloquent, if not more long winded.

I've been reading this thread a few days now, but have not commented on anything said about Alive in comparison to TC until now as I last listened to Alive roughly a month ago.

I love TC and still think it is the best CD I own, even above SS.

Since there have been people comparing TC to Alive (how I don't know, but ok), I decided to do something on my own:

I decided to listen to both Alive and then TC from beginning to end.

What the fuck are these guys smoking? How can you say that Alive is in anywhere near anything on Throwing Copper? I mean what the fuck man?!

In case they listened to it stoned or something, I decided to smoke a lot (I do mean a lot) of marijuana and listen to Alive and TC again. I got as far as Fire On the Mountain, and when he hit those high notes, I couldn't take it anymore - I switched over to TC again and listened right through till Horse and then the B-sides (yes, even this really shitty sound quality b-sides) and it sounded so, so good.

How anyone can even think about comparing the two is beyond me. How anyone can suggest they're similar in anyway apart from a small percentage when you can hear similarities that this is Ed Kowalczyk on both productions, is beyond understanding.

In order to have heard or felt anything close between the two, I think you'd have to be smoking something a lot stronger than marijuana (yes, even the good shit) or you've gotta be a complete tool.

I'm not saying you can't love Alive if you want to - I'm not saying no one loves Alive - I'm just saying that Alive is in no where near anything on TC. I don't think we need to be a professional to work that shit out on our own.

Ok, thanks for reading.

Edit: Just by the by, what the fuck is Ed going on about in Eat Your Love? I mean this seriously, please tell me, then kill me.

This post has been edited by sh4rpz: Aug 19 2010, 5:19 am

pretty sure it's a song about Holy Communion.

you see, jesus is love. when you take the eucharist you are in communion with the lord jesus christ, who is love. So when edward says i want to eat your love....well.... you can kill yourself now. i dig the song a lot though.

This post has been edited by Wambangalang: Aug 20 2010, 2:43 am