Thoughts on "Honest Man" and "Believe"

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Thoughts on "Honest Man" and "Believe", One Song - Two Versions

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Pokey	Aug 7 2010, 4:31 am Post #31
Lakini Reputation: 676.5 () Group: Members Posts: 7,031 Joined: Feb 2006	QUOTE(thefunkyredcaboose @ Aug 7 2010, 6:43 am) Objectively speaking, Ed would have to either sing it an octave lower or sing so much of the song in falsetto that it would be un-listenable. I'm sure I'll get ripped for that by someone, but Ed would have never written this melody because it is going to be out of his range. Besides that, Kevin wrote the lyrics, so let's just leave the credit where it belongs and not in some crazy hypothetical universe where Ed actually still writes interesting lyrics. I'm totally cool with people not liking Kevin's voice, but if you like his lyrics then at least give him credit for that. Saying otherwise is quite the musical slap in the face, IMO. Agreed. I understand people not liking Kevin's voice, even some of the candlebox stuff doesn't quite do it for me. But Ed couldn't handle Honest Man as it is now, it just wouldn't sit right for him. I dont think Believe did either shrugs

PurdueSteve	Aug 7 2010, 9:06 am Post #32
Gas Hed Reputation: 566 () Group: Members Posts: 629 Joined: Mar 2007 From: New Albany, IN	QUOTE(thefunkyredcaboose @ Aug 6 2010, 4:43 pm) Objectively speaking, Ed would have to either sing it an octave lower or sing so much of the song in falsetto that it would be un-listenable. I'm sure I'll get ripped for that by someone, but Ed would have never written this melody because it is going to be out of his range. Besides that, Kevin wrote the lyrics, so let's just leave the credit where it belongs and not in some crazy hypothetical universe where Ed actually still writes interesting lyrics. I'm totally cool with people not liking Kevin's voice, but if you like his lyrics then at least give him credit for that. Saying otherwise is quite the musical slap in the face, IMO. I don't think it's outside of his range, in fact I think it's well within his range. As for the lyrics, I wasn't making a claim that Kevin didn't write them, I just wouldn't mind hearing Ed's voice on the song. One doesn't have to write the lyrics to sing them. That and are you certain Kevin wrote all of the lyrics, I remember CT tweeting/blogging about how difficult it was, and how long it has been since he last wrote lyrics. I think of the song in a semi-political tone and it seems to align to a degree with CTs spoken positions.

Aitkens	Aug 7 2010, 9:22 am Post #33
Lakini Reputation: 1098 () Group: Members Posts: 1,690 Joined: May 2010 From: York, Pa	There is no way that Ed could manage the vocals on Honest Man. He just doesn't have that dynamic range. He never really did without straining.

TheBeacon	Aug 7 2010, 9:30 am Post #34
Gas Hed Reputation: 92 () Group: Members Posts: 537 Joined: Apr 2008	QUOTE(SecretInsomnia @ Aug 3 2010, 2:39 pm) * ed had been writing for new Live songs since 2006. I think much is used on his solo album * Chad taylor had quite a few ideas he worked out, also he wanted to use this for Live. I think much is used on the TGF album. It would seem that from all the stuff CT had written and Ed that if they would have been able to make another LIVE album with everyone working on it and not just Ed that this album would have been more creative than anything since TDTH. They would have had a lot of material to work on and take CT's or TGF's now music and add it to some stuff from Ed and I think tis album would have been great! The shows they were playing before the breakup and the appearance of Believe would suggest that if Ed would have been open to the idea of collectively writing together then this album would have been bad ass I think! IMO

thefunkyredcaboose	Aug 7 2010, 5:26 pm Post #35
Too sexy for this board Reputation: 1237.5 () Group: Members Posts: 2,993 Joined: Mar 2006	QUOTE(PurdueSteve @ Aug 7 2010, 10:06 am) I don't think it's outside of his range, in fact I think it's well within his range. As for the lyrics, I wasn't making a claim that Kevin didn't write them, I just wouldn't mind hearing Ed's voice on the song. One doesn't have to write the lyrics to sing them. That and are you certain Kevin wrote all of the lyrics, I remember CT tweeting/blogging about how difficult it was, and how long it has been since he last wrote lyrics. I think of the song in a semi-political tone and it seems to align to a degree with CTs spoken positions. Find me a song where Ed hits a note as high as where Kevin goes before the final chorus of "Honest Man." I bet you can't do it. I bet you also can't find a modern recording where Ed has the level of aggression necessary to pull off that melody. It unfortunately just isn't happening. There was some mention of others writing lyrics (and they may have for this track), but my main point is that saying you would rather hear Ed sing something that he had no creative part in is a slap in the face to the folks who created it. If you enjoy the lyrics/melody then enjoy it for what it is, not wish someone else was performing something they didn't create. I too wish Ed would write something besides uninspired Christian pop lyrics and safe melodies, so don't get me wrong there. But he doesn't and that's that.

thefunkyredcaboose	Aug 7 2010, 5:27 pm Post #36
Too sexy for this board Reputation: 1237.5 () Group: Members Posts: 2,993 Joined: Mar 2006	QUOTE(Pokey @ Aug 7 2010, 5:31 am) Agreed. I understand people not liking Kevin's voice, even some of the candlebox stuff doesn't quite do it for me. But Ed couldn't handle Honest Man as it is now, it just wouldn't sit right for him. I dont think Believe did either shrugs He was straining hard for the notes he picked in the chorus of "Believe" in all the videos I've seen. It just didn't work.

Hoodstock	Aug 7 2010, 9:10 pm Post #37
The Voice of Reason Reputation: 2152 () Group: Members Posts: 5,284 Joined: Aug 2006 From: Michigan	QUOTE(thefunkyredcaboose @ Aug 6 2010, 4:43 pm) Objectively speaking, Ed would have to either sing it an octave lower or sing so much of the song in falsetto that it would be un-listenable. I'm sure I'll get ripped for that by someone, but Ed would have never written this melody because it is going to be out of his range. Besides that, Kevin wrote the lyrics, so let's just leave the credit where it belongs and not in some crazy hypothetical universe where Ed actually still writes interesting lyrics. I'm totally cool with people not liking Kevin's voice, but if you like his lyrics then at least give him credit for that. Saying otherwise is quite the musical slap in the face, IMO. Ed's lyrics have been shit for years. Kevin sounds alright on the recordings, I don't know about live though. From what I've seen, he cannot manage the Live covers they've been doing.

thefunkyredcaboose	Aug 7 2010, 10:00 pm Post #38
Too sexy for this board Reputation: 1237.5 () Group: Members Posts: 2,993 Joined: Mar 2006	QUOTE(Hoodstock @ Aug 7 2010, 10:10 pm) Ed's lyrics have been shit for years. Kevin sounds alright on the recordings, I don't know about live though. From what I've seen, he cannot manage the Live covers they've been doing. They did one Live cover twice. The Summerfest performance was bad, but did you hear the Fat Daddy's one? It was much better, so who knows what was going on? Monitor problems maybe? There's no way to know, and they quit playing the song anyway, probably because it was too low. That's a bit of a different problem than having trouble performing a song because the notes are too high. We all watched Ed struggle with that after V came out and it wasn't pleasant. I love both of their voices, but it is just objective that Kevin sings higher than Ed. That isn't a slap in the face to anyone, it just means that neither would do an amazing job at covering each other's songs without moving the key around. I don't know that anyone wants that, I definitely don't. This post has been edited by thefunkyredcaboose: Aug 7 2010, 10:11 pm

PurdueSteve	Aug 9 2010, 6:55 am Post #39
Gas Hed Reputation: 566 () Group: Members Posts: 629 Joined: Mar 2007 From: New Albany, IN	QUOTE(thefunkyredcaboose @ Aug 7 2010, 6:26 pm) Find me a song where Ed hits a note as high as where Kevin goes before the final chorus of "Honest Man." I bet you can't do it. I bet you also can't find a modern recording where Ed has the level of aggression necessary to pull off that melody. It unfortunately just isn't happening. ? The only part where it's high-pitched, and perhaps the part where I presume you're talking about, is around the 3:20 mark. After the bridge. Kevin does a bit of a rock-scream that climbs in note. He does it again, not as high, around the 3:40 mark. I understand your position against Ed. He has gone towards pop. Regardless I believe Ed could sing Honest Man, and he could sing it well. Take Ed's voice in the bridge for both Grace and Zion. He's not completely lacking aggression and he's going quite high in pitch, while NOT in his false-setto and while being quite strong. His lyrics suck, his song writing has become shit, but ED can still SING.

Aitkens	Aug 9 2010, 6:59 am Post #40
Lakini Reputation: 1098 () Group: Members Posts: 1,690 Joined: May 2010 From: York, Pa	QUOTE(PurdueSteve @ Aug 9 2010, 7:55 am) ? The only part where it's high-pitched, and perhaps the part where I presume you're talking about, is around the 3:20 mark. After the bridge. Kevin does a bit of a rock-scream that climbs in note. He does it again, not as high, around the 3:40 mark. I understand your position against Ed. He has gone towards pop. Regardless I believe Ed could sing Honest Man, and he could sing it well. Take Ed's voice in the bridge for both Grace and Zion. He's not completely lacking aggression and he's going quite high in pitch, while NOT in his false-setto and while being quite strong. His lyrics suck, his song writing has become shit, but ED can still SING. He can't sing like he used to. He also struggles going from the low growl to the higher pitched notes. That's why he started his falsetto crap 10 years ago. There's no way he could pull off Honest Man, not the same caliber that Kevin Martin does it. Ed might be able to get through it, but it wouldn't be nearly the same quality.

thefunkyredcaboose	Aug 9 2010, 7:28 am Post #41
Too sexy for this board Reputation: 1237.5 () Group: Members Posts: 2,993 Joined: Mar 2006	QUOTE(PurdueSteve @ Aug 9 2010, 7:55 am) ? The only part where it's high-pitched, and perhaps the part where I presume you're talking about, is around the 3:20 mark. After the bridge. Kevin does a bit of a rock-scream that climbs in note. He does it again, not as high, around the 3:40 mark. I understand your position against Ed. He has gone towards pop. Regardless I believe Ed could sing Honest Man, and he could sing it well. Take Ed's voice in the bridge for both Grace and Zion. He's not completely lacking aggression and he's going quite high in pitch, while NOT in his false-setto and while being quite strong. His lyrics suck, his song writing has become shit, but ED can still SING. Ed CAN still sing, I was never saying that. But to say that he and Kevin sing in the same range vocally is just untrue. Kevin can get up higher than Ed full voice, and Ed can hit lower notes than Kevin. The two write very different melodies as a result. I think the two different melodies that they wrote for Believe/Honest Man illustrate that point. That isn't a slam on Ed to me, just a difference in the two singers. Either way, I would never want to hear Ed sing Honest Man because he had the chance to write it and instead wrote uninspired melodies and lyrics.

Pokey	Aug 9 2010, 7:28 am Post #42
Lakini Reputation: 676.5 () Group: Members Posts: 7,031 Joined: Feb 2006	Ed singing Honest Man wouldnt sonically sound right for the tone the song needs. The same way when he sings Iris and Shit Towne it just doesn't sound the way the song should. The tone you're talking about in Grace comes across as "powerful" it's like he's turned the volume up rather than it coming from somewhere within. His voice is too .. 'nice' for lack of a better term now. Honest Man is rough .. I just don't think Ed singing the words "Knuckles bare and still bleeding from the blood of this town" would carry the same weight as when KM does. I don't think Ed's voice would fall to pieces or anything, but it just wouldn't sound right ... he'd pussy it up, his voice lacks that raw masculinity and testosterone fueled angst that it had, and that's what Honest Man needs. Ed wouldn't do it justice.

OutToDry	Aug 9 2010, 9:40 am Post #43
Lakini Reputation: 598.5 () Group: Members Posts: 8,928 Joined: Oct 2009	@ Pokey

OutToDry	Oct 3 2012, 9:16 pm Post #44
Lakini Reputation: 598.5 () Group: Members Posts: 8,928 Joined: Oct 2009	for the upcoming LiveFan blog, the lyrical debate Honest Man Or Believe.....(just an assist to fish) while one song expresses the frustrations of the common man and the recession, the other sounds like a proclamation to bolt out the door. Whatcha think?? QUOTE Honest Man: With a riot in mind Comes an angry young man With a stone from the pavement Comes an army of unrest Stripped bare by her bachelors, stripped bare on the ground Knuckles bared and still bleeding with the blood of this town They take my home they take my land the flower of my life They take my friends; they take my love and cut me like a knife I spit these words at vile lies the worlds forgotten men Aint no work Aint no work For an honest man In a daze of confusion Lies a troubled broken land As they feast upon my table I am left with an empty hand Stripped bare by her bachelors, stripped bare on the ground Knuckles bared and still bleeding with the blood of this town They take my home they take my land the flower of my life They take my friends; they take my love and cut me like a knife I spit these words at vile lies the worlds forgotten men Aint no work Aint no work For an honest man For so long we’ve been told That our paths lead us home Are we safe from ourselves? Have we strayed or have we failed? They take my home they take my land the flower of my life They take my friends; they take my love and cut me like a knife I spit these words at vile lies the worlds forgotten men Aint no work Aint no work For an honest man QUOTE Believe: There’s a wake up from the dream Into is it out of seam til the rise up for some want to share this bread out loud It’s time to believe again I brought it to you my friend If this is not the end, then drive until the point of no return I blew up my tv set A solid ball of disarray They can smell right through my quiet all my........ It’s time to believe again I brought it to you my friend If this is not the end, then drive until the point of no return No return No return No return It’s time to believe again I brought it to you my friend If this is not the end, then drive until the point of no return It’s time to believe again I brought it to you my friend If this is not the end, then drive until the point of no return

Aitkens	Oct 3 2012, 9:18 pm Post #45
Lakini Reputation: 1098 () Group: Members Posts: 1,690 Joined: May 2010 From: York, Pa	I'll say this as simple as possible. Honest Man has soul. It personifies the blood, sweat, and tears of your working class. Believe is a soulless song. It has words, but no true meaning. Where as Honest Man is all meat and potatoes. Believe is all show, it's freaking parsley.

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