When you really look at the lyrics it is almost quite sad how they've fallen...

Also, not sure who I'd call the most talented musician in the group, but I don't think people can call their ability. Simply because we know what they've done, but we don't know everything they can do. Eg, how do you know Taylor can't bust out the craziest speed metal solo, how do you know Pat can't slap the funkiest and hardest of basslines, and how do you know Gracey can't drum like a fricking madman?

This post has been edited by Merica: Mar 23 2008, 5:05 am

Well .. you'd think if they can do those things .. they would wouldn't they? I don't believe any muso should hold back, what's the point? It's not like football where you rest your big stars in a game they're not needed. I'd agree that Pat is probably the best at what he does in the band ... Gracey is as said, an above average drummer and can really turn in on some times but compared to some drummers I've seen (I'm looking at you Claude Coleman) he would be blown out of the water ... Taylor is just an average guitarist in my view. Has had his hand in writing some good songs and by saying average it's in no way a diss against him, but you'd not rush over to your friends house with a copy of a Live album in your hand going "dude you have GOT to check out the guitar on this!". Ed as has been covered, has had his hand in writing some awesome lyrics, some amoungst my favorite ever ... his voice can reach near perfection at times, or at least could ... the lyrics have become absolutely woeful and I am not a huge fan of his singing style now.
Pat just seems a cut above the rest, he either does his part and provides a solid bass line where is needed, or he takes the song by the balls and takes control, to me he just stands out .. the bass in PLOTR is some of my favorite ever. He's still no Les Claypool, but sometimes that's a good thing ... whilst Les Claypool might leave you awestruck with his playing, it can be a bit too showpony sometimes, I love the grooves that Pat gets into.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FeQ7ADuwso8
4:10 - 4:13

Watch the whole thing though....

This post has been edited by dangum: Mar 23 2008, 6:25 am

Well yeah, I know he can drum like a madman, I wasn't suggesting he couldn't.

Regardless, love that video.

one of my favorite versions of I Alone right there, but CG just looks so awkward in that little bit you pointed out, kinda like a kid throwing a tantrum

Well, poetry and rock lyrics are two different things... although a version of Dylan Thomas' "do not go gently into that good night" would be a hilarious rock song.

What are we fighting for had deeper lyrics than Home, the river, deep enough, and a slew of other songs. My point was that it was delivered wrong. Sometimes, the point of a song can get lost in the song. A good example of this is Waterboy (which most of you rated low) Look at this line, genius!

"who is making over
idolizing princes
banishing the dreamers with
barbed-wire fences"

This part is fantastic but you can miss it if you aren't listening. Another:

"fighting, mating, warring
you are all this now
be aware, not scared
look at me now
silence
I say"

Needless to say, but MJ does more right than wrong. The B sides from the album contain alot of meaningful lyrics that could be supported by instrumentals but are instead shoved behind them. I think this is why I like Mirror song so much. It's a simple song, focused, balanced, and one of the best songs I have ever heard. I can relate it to Lightning crashes or even stairway to heaven in that the vocals are more important for most of the song. (Let it be known that both those songs are better than MS)

Agreed, Some notable songs where the bass drives the song are TBD, Heropsychodreamer, and Take my Anthem.

I think this whole thread has given me a deeper appreciation for Mental jewelry.

I do know what you mean here, but sometimes I kind of prefer it that way. I love when some really great lyrics are overshadowed by an even more awesome instrumental part because when it does click with you just exactly what is being said and you hear it again it's like all the planets align and and it becomes one of "those moments" in a song ... not saying that the above example is one of them, but yeah.

I also know you don't mean that the instruments at this particular point in waterboy are amazing either, just that the delivery is not what it could be.

Just going through some old youtube clips that I thought were appropriate for this thread:

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=83k24iVEhAw&feature=related

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7NRepZT4Fxs&feature=related

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Bj-X6EO3GZk&feature=related

The passion and conviction and energy that the band had back then I don't think will ever be matched. Sure they may sound tighter these days, but here they just demand your attention. Ed's voice is just awesome, is this even the same guy who sings The River?? Pat and his funky thumb slappin' bass ... god I wish they could recapture some of this again.

Tired of Me is incredible when done live, I have a few recordings of it and the clip above is no exception .. the power in Ed when he sings
"used steel
used steel am I
what was pliable in love
is now hard and crystallized"

then
"hope is a letter that never arrives
delivered by the postman of my fear"

And the little jam directly after that, amazing.

The Operation Spirit clip, that is from a TV show ... they look like they're treating doing that song (and mirror song) like it's a concert in itself. Most bands act like TV appearences are something entirely different from gigs, but this was like "hey come to our gigs, this is what it's like". Even now when they did Heaven and Run Away and such on TV shows ... no passion, looks like it's rehersed, dare I say no spirit?

I'm not in the situation to thank Hoodstock much but if anything this thread has kicked off a huge desire to listen to Mental Jewelry a few times.

This post has been edited by Pokey: Mar 23 2008, 2:31 pm

Thanks for the links dude. They certainly had some edge back then when Prozac wasn't involved. Guess there was a certain desire to seem cool and rebellious, along with the desire to make it big back then. Now that they've made it, sure seems like they're doing everything they can to lose it.

Also really don't care what The River loving newbs think, MJ is amongst their best work. Different, but still amonst their very best. There was passion and energy back then. That performance on the Deniis Miller show was fucking awesome, so thanks. Anybody who says Operation Spirit is lacklustre and lacks instumental prowess is just well......

So here's a link to a version of I Alone mixed with Bittersweet Symphony and Feel The Quiet River Rage. This video is vintage Live in my opionion. It is the climax before the steep decline. Railo made this fucking song kick serious ass in concert. Around the 2:25 mark, this songs literally gives me the heebie jeebies, goosebumps if you will. It starts my adrenaline big time, I love it more than anything I've ever seen from this band before. Ed looks like a fruit at times, but he also seems kinda cool, relaxed and confident at the same time.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=jW8y-lE1aiE&feature=related

This post has been edited by LiveRoCkS77: Mar 23 2008, 3:57 pm

There is a part 2 to the show!

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=FEwzzerzn1c&feature=related

They perform Mirror song, which did not rock as much as Operation spirit but towards the end he adds new lyrics and puts some emotion into it! watch it

(thanks for posting the link to the show, I had never seen it )

And only in the early 90s would someone that looked like ... THAT would have their own show on tv.

Yeah, but he was one funny little bastard though.

01. Mother Earth is a Vicious Crowd
02. Brothers Unaware
03. Pain Lies on the Riverside
04. Good Pain
05. Tired of "Me"
06. Waterboy
07. Operation Spirit
08. Take My Anthem
09. The Beauty of Gray
10. 10,000 Years
11. Mirror Song
12. You Are The World

This post has been edited by Pain: Mar 25 2008, 1:48 am

provided ... produced, provided.